Vegan "Transformations"--Simply from Cutting The Junk...or?... page 3

[Rosencrantz1]

2. What should a healthy person look like?

Such a great point, KathyH. I think you're correct in that a lot of what *looks* healthy is cultural, and what might look healthy to one person or one community may not to another person/community.

Furthermore, I think it's a valid question to ask "What *is* healthy?" -- what do we *mean* when we use that word? Is someone who lives disease-free, but dies at 75 *healthier* than someone who is sickly, but makes it to 90? Is someone who shows more generally-accepted (and I understand the danger in my using that term ;-) ) risk factors (e.g. elevated triglycerides, more body fat) less healthy than someone who doesn't show those factors? What if the person with the better profile has poorer mobility? Worse eye-sight?

I think we all have something relatively similar in mind when we say "healthy," but there is probably a lot of variation within that.

Good discussion!

[onalark]

When I was a veg-head, I came across Alicia Silverstone's blog. I still check it out every now and again for recommendations on beauty products or whatever. Regularly, she posts a testimonial from someone for the vegan diet. Of course, the people in the testimonials praise a vegan diet, that they have no more ailments, they have more energy, they feel amazing. They gave up dairy and their acne went away, blah blah etc! One woman attributes dairy to being the only cause of her female hormonal problems (pcos, etc.), as she had been a vegetarian for most of her life.

Anyway, my point is, do you think these people benefit because they are cutting out low-quality meats/dairy/eggs and most processed food to become a vegan?(in the ''real'' sense of the vegan word--minimally processed foods) For example, this woman with the hormonal problems--do you think she would have had the same results if she had simply tried switching to raw, organic dairy? (Or, perhaps, it could be possible she just cannot tolerate dairy.)

When I made the switch from junk fooder to vegan, I felt amazing. But, also, when I made the switch from vegan to primal, I felt amazing! It struck me as interesting to think about.

Thoughts?

Specifically targeting Silverstone's diet...if they're going full "Superhero", there's a lot of toxic food getting cut out there, on top of the dairy she may have been reactive to. The "Superhero" version of the diet is essentially macrobiotics. So long as they aren't going crazy with wheat noodles and flour tortillas, they're probably getting a lot of whole, fresh foods.

That said, I'm willing to bet it's not sustainable. And ultimately, that girl will slide back into old habits as her body craves fat and protein. Unless she's one of the "lucky" outliers.

[KathyH]

Specifically targeting Silverstone's diet...if they're going full "Superhero", there's a lot of toxic food getting cut out there, on top of the dairy she may have been reactive to. The "Superhero" version of the diet is essentially macrobiotics. So long as they aren't going crazy with wheat noodles and flour tortillas, they're probably getting a lot of whole, fresh foods.

That said, I'm willing to bet it's not sustainable. And ultimately, that girl will slide back into old habits as her body craves fat and protein. Unless she's one of the "lucky" outliers.

Are you saying there are no proteins and fats in vegetables? Besides how do you know what her body craves? There are too many generalizations from anecdotal evidence to draw right conclusions. For example, I grew up in a society where there is no pizza in a mainstream diet and I never crave for it never liked it, just an example to prove my point.

[RitaRose]

Are you saying there are no proteins and fats in vegetables? Besides how do you know what her body craves? There are too many generalizations from anecdotal evidence to draw right conclusions. For example, I grew up in a society where there is no pizza in a mainstream diet and I never crave for it never liked it, just an example to prove my point.

There just isn't the same nutrition in vegetables that there are in vegetables AND meat. There's no way around that.

[onalark]

Are you saying there are no proteins and fats in vegetables? Besides how do you know what her body craves? There are too many generalizations from anecdotal evidence to draw right conclusions. For example, I grew up in a society where there is no pizza in a mainstream diet and I never crave for it never liked it, just an example to prove my point.

Don't think I said that at all. A vegan diet (especially the one Silverstone prescribes) is going to be higher on the carb scale and lower in the things that are most likely to bring satiation to most people: namely, fat and proteins. It will almost certainly be lower in saturated fat and contain zero dietary cholesterol.

I am assuming the person JennaRose is talking about is sticking to Silverstone's plan. And her plan is low on protein and fat.

Silverstone is notably anti-sat-fat (page 74):

"Saturated fats (as well as hydrogenated fats, or trans fats) are the baddies, raising cholesterol and contributing the heart disease....."

She also thinks you don't need all that much protein (page 60):

"Many people don't need protein more than once a day, but others crave more. It depends on your level of activity and muscle mass. Especially when you're adjusting to a plant-based diet, I recommend you have a bean or some kind of protein product every day."

Yeah, once a day! That'll sate ya! (Hint: no, it won't.)

She also mentions we get "too much" protein; associating excess protein with cancer, heart disease, arthritis, and osteoporosis. So she's scaring you into buying her "facts" that protein is necessary, but too much is bad, so eat it, but don't eat too much.

Anyone who's been on a low fat, high carb diet knows what it means to crave fat. You can hold against it for a while, but eventually you give in. Unless, again, you're a "lucky" outlier. Which I mentioned in this case because, as you correctly pointed out, I don't know what the person in question "craves". However, I know what most humans crave, and I know what most of us who have failed at vegan diets eventually succumb to.

Most of the people who pick up the Kind Diet are going to still crave pizza. Silverstone and her ghost writer probably knew this; they offer an alternative for it in the book. It is, in fact, the first recipe in the book. An alternative that's extremely high in carbohydrates, has very little protein, and some fat (from a drizzle of truffle oil). As someone who ate it once, I can attest -- it wasn't very filling, and I ate half the pizza.

They have a WHOLE SECTION, in fact, for when you want to not be a "Superhero" and "slack off" but still be vegan. This includes a true abomination of a panini made with frozen waffles, fake cheese, veganaise, soysage, and apricot jam. Mmm. Vegan health food! But at least there's no cholesterol, amiright?

It's a terrible panini, by the way. And you're encouraged to think of it as a treat. At least it has some fat and crude protein, though. The rest of the recipes all swing toward the sweet, a pattern I've noted often in vegan cookbooks, which are almost always lower in fat and protein. Sugar burners gonna burn sugar.

[KathyH]

Don't think I said that at all. A vegan diet (especially the one Silverstone prescribes) is going to be higher on the carb scale and lower in the things that are most likely to bring satiation to most people: namely, fat and proteins. It will almost certainly be lower in saturated fat and contain zero dietary cholesterol.

I am assuming the person JennaRose is talking about is sticking to Silverstone's plan. And her plan is low on protein and fat.

Silverstone is notably anti-sat-fat (page 74):

"Saturated fats (as well as hydrogenated fats, or trans fats) are the baddies, raising cholesterol and contributing the heart disease....."

She also thinks you don't need all that much protein (page 60):

"Many people don't need protein more than once a day, but others crave more. It depends on your level of activity and muscle mass. Especially when you're adjusting to a plant-based diet, I recommend you have a bean or some kind of protein product every day."

Yeah, once a day! That'll sate ya! (Hint: no, it won't.)

She also mentions we get "too much" protein; associating excess protein with cancer, heart disease, arthritis, and osteoporosis. So she's scaring you into buying her "facts" that protein is necessary, but too much is bad, so eat it, but don't eat too much.

Anyone who's been on a low fat, high carb diet knows what it means to crave fat. You can hold against it for a while, but eventually you give in. Unless, again, you're a "lucky" outlier. Which I mentioned in this case because, as you correctly pointed out, I don't know what the person in question "craves". However, I know what most humans crave, and I know what most of us who have failed at vegan diets eventually succumb to.

Most of the people who pick up the Kind Diet are going to still crave pizza. Silverstone and her ghost writer probably knew this; they offer an alternative for it in the book. It is, in fact, the first recipe in the book. An alternative that's extremely high in carbohydrates, has very little protein, and some fat (from a drizzle of truffle oil). As someone who ate it once, I can attest -- it wasn't very filling, and I ate half the pizza.

They have a WHOLE SECTION, in fact, for when you want to not be a "Superhero" and "slack off" but still be vegan. This includes a true abomination of a panini made with frozen waffles, fake cheese, veganaise, soysage, and apricot jam. Mmm. Vegan health food! But at least there's no cholesterol, amiright?

It's a terrible panini, by the way. And you're encouraged to think of it as a treat. At least it has some fat and crude protein, though. The rest of the recipes all swing toward the sweet, a pattern I've noted often in vegan cookbooks, which are almost always lower in fat and protein. Sugar burners gonna burn sugar.

I don't know who Silverstone is so can't comment on her and her diet but you are generalizing. You said that a vegan diet (especially the one Silverstone prescribes) is going to be higher on the carb scale and lower in the things that are most likely to bring satiation to most people: namely, fat and proteins.
Seriously, you can speak on a behalf of the whole world's population??? Because fat and proteins satisfy you doesn't mean they satisfy the rest of the 7 billion people. Your cultural eating habits might be totally different than other humans. You know what most humans crave??? WOW, I am impressed.

[KathyH]

There just isn't the same nutrition in vegetables that there are in vegetables AND meat. There's no way around that.

Of course it is not the same nutrition. The question is which one is "optimal" nutrition, which NOONE knows. I know many experts here will claim they do.

[RitaRose]

There just isn't the same nutrition in vegetables that there are in vegetables AND meat. There's no way around that.

Of course it is not the same nutrition. The question is which one is "optimal" nutrition, which NOONE knows. I know many experts here will claim they do.

Let me rephrase it then. There just isn't AS MUCH nutrition in vegetables as there is in vegetables and meat. And there's still no way around that.

[KathyH]

Such a great point, KathyH. I think you're correct in that a lot of what *looks* healthy is cultural, and what might look healthy to one person or one community may not to another person/community.

Furthermore, I think it's a valid question to ask "What *is* healthy?" -- what do we *mean* when we use that word? Is someone who lives disease-free, but dies at 75 *healthier* than someone who is sickly, but makes it to 90? Is someone who shows more generally-accepted (and I understand the danger in my using that term ;-) ) risk factors (e.g. elevated triglycerides, more body fat) less healthy than someone who doesn't show those factors? What if the person with the better profile has poorer mobility? Worse eye-sight?

I think we all have something relatively similar in mind when we say "healthy," but there is probably a lot of variation within that.

Good discussion!

Agreed, good discussion. You raise valid questions to which I don't have answers. These questions indicate that the science of nutrition is very complex, open to long debates.

[KathyH]

Let me rephrase it then. There just isn't AS MUCH nutrition in vegetables as there is in vegetables and meat. And there's still no way around that.

Are you talking about "good" nutrition or just any nutrition?