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Thread: Vegan "Transformations"--Simply from Cutting The Junk...or?... page 2

  1. #11
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    Primal Fuel
    Like most diets they get rid of most of the junk. People say the same things about keto atkins, is it really an amazing diet? or is it just a hell of a lot better than whatever they were doing beforehand. With both vegan and keto dieters, you see a lot of people running into troubles longer term and failing to switch gears as they slowly stop thriving.

  2. #12
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    I've never been vegan or vegetarian, but I do think anything that makes you more conscious of what you're eating is going to help, if only a little. Even switching from Big Macs to McDoubles is probably going to help a tiny bit. If you ditch McDonalds completely, it will have even more of an effect.

    I also think there's a bit of peer pressure to lay low when it stops working, like when you run out of stored fuel. You're not going to hear about the eventual lethargy or brain fog. No one is going to post about that because it's admitting failure. It doesn't matter that it's a failure of the nutrition (or lack thereof) that you're taking in. It still feels like failure, and no one wants to go on and on about that.

    Throw in a little "This needs to work because it's the right thing to do" and it's all success stories.
    My sorely neglected blog - http://ThatWriterBroad.com

  3. #13
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    It is quite possible that the lady who supposedly fixed her hormone issues was just intolerant to dairy. I certainly felt better when I cut out dairy and went from veg to vegan, and now consider myself to be slightly intolerant to dairy. But then I felt worse again and needed to "advance" to raw vegan to feel that high again. But as that 'Vegans are Cannibals' article articulated it often doesn't last and one quickly goes downhill. At first I was all over everyone trying to help people see the light and increase the raw fruit and veg in their diet and exercise more and such! Then my teeth started decaying, I got B12 deficiencies despite supplementing, sodium deficiencies, extremely underweight (I was diagnosed suspected eating disorder despite eating tonnes, because I was too skinny) and diagnosed depression - I burnt out and got really sick (4 months in hospital anyone?). The hardcore raw vegans will say I didn't drink enough water or the right water or I didn't eat enough fruit or the right fruit etc etc, but really even if you will succeed being 100% perfect as a raw vegan it's just not sustainable for the majority of people who try.

    I could have been used as a success story in my early days of raw vegan when I reached my ideal weight, exercised daily and before my teeth went yellow! But in the raw and vegan worlds I have seen several people who have been used as success stories, but have then come out saying they now eat meat because they didn't feel their best after a while.

  4. #14
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    I have been warning my College bound daughter about the perils of veganism on campus. Let's face it, if you are 18-22 years old you can almost anything to your body and still feel pretty good. So, if you ate nothing but slurpees in high school and switched to the all rice diet in college, you might feel just great, because almost nothing feels as great as being 18-22 years old.

  5. #15
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    As I am always wary of the fact that "Just because you're in a room full of people that agree with you, doesn't mean you are right" So I had a bit of a look around and drawing on some of my recent readings. The first thing that came to mind was the various alternative Cancer therapies, a lot of them are based on the vegitarian/raw food protocol, I know there is a big ? around them, but obviously some individuals have had some success with this direction, conversly there are studies which indicate a Ketogenic diet can be of assistance with some cancers. Then there is the longevity thing, the most often quoted are the Hunza, Vilacombe & Aberkhanasa (not sure of spelling), when you look into these often there is a question about verifiable records & they are mostly vegitarian, but sometimes do eat meat in small quantities. The current official highest life expectancy belongs to a small landlocked european country Andorra, mediterranian diet, high elevation & average 300 days of sunlight per year, stress free culture. So I thought what about the Shaolin monks, they're vegeterian & healthy, strong, fast etc., well found out only the temple monks are strict vegetarians, but the Warrior monks do eat meat, in smaller quantities and these are the guys we are most familiar with. Even looked at the oldest recorded person to have lived, Jeanne Louise Calment, she died at 122 & 7 months, nothing special in diet or excercised, smoked daily, but only a couple per day, didn't really exercise or avoid it, was walking till age 117.
    So I am coming to the conclusion that one can likely find success equally from 90:10 Animal:Vegetable diet or 10:90, but the full Vegan approach is really out on the far edge of nutrition, some people can do well possibly, but there are many stories of people that suffer serious malnutrition. Landed on a Veg/Vegan forum the other day, was amazing how many there were actively discussing heart disease, high cholesterol etc., some defending the diet, just need better supplementation, others looked like they were getting ready to jump ship.

    I think one has to remember all the other factors contributing to wellness, some of the oldest people on the planet are not Paleo & probably don't even know what it means, it is more likely that they had the benefit of other lifestyle factors, so it makes me question all the fuss some individuals go to with their Paleo approach, how much is this actually detracting from their progress, state of mind, stress, lifestyle, relationships etc. etc., how much is Paleo driving your life?
    I do wonder if generally Paleo, relaxed, slightly "cuddly", mixed moderate exercise is not the best kind of direction for an overall personal best in the life stakes.
    My general direction currently is Paleo with a dash of Raw foodies and traditional diet (Weston A Price) overtones, but this is still an evolving process for me.
    On the original question of Vegans, I have done enough research to satisfy myself that this direction is flawed, unless one is fully informed and takes the appropriate supplements with regular checkups, even then there is a risk of malnutrition in my opinion.
    Last edited by Omni; 06-16-2012 at 02:01 AM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heth View Post
    It is quite possible that the lady who supposedly fixed her hormone issues was just intolerant to dairy. I certainly felt better when I cut out dairy and went from veg to vegan, and now consider myself to be slightly intolerant to dairy. But then I felt worse again and needed to "advance" to raw vegan to feel that high again. But as that 'Vegans are Cannibals' article articulated it often doesn't last and one quickly goes downhill. At first I was all over everyone trying to help people see the light and increase the raw fruit and veg in their diet and exercise more and such! Then my teeth started decaying, I got B12 deficiencies despite supplementing, sodium deficiencies, extremely underweight (I was diagnosed suspected eating disorder despite eating tonnes, because I was too skinny) and diagnosed depression - I burnt out and got really sick (4 months in hospital anyone?). The hardcore raw vegans will say I didn't drink enough water or the right water or I didn't eat enough fruit or the right fruit etc etc, but really even if you will succeed being 100% perfect as a raw vegan it's just not sustainable for the majority of people who try.

    I could have been used as a success story in my early days of raw vegan when I reached my ideal weight, exercised daily and before my teeth went yellow! But in the raw and vegan worlds I have seen several people who have been used as success stories, but have then come out saying they now eat meat because they didn't feel their best after a while.
    And how different is that from people who are on Paleo and come to this forum, post about not feeling good and the answers are, you don't eat enough fat or not enough protein or your ratios are wrong etc etc. Same thing.

  7. #17
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    A few things come to mind in a thread like this:

    1) There is ample anecdotal evidence to support many diets. What this indicates, to me, is just how adaptable we are when it comes to diet. Makes sense, though, that we would be so adaptable - it's part of why we've been able to thrive as a species, I would think.

    2) I feel, at times, that the relative importance of different elements of diet gets overlooked. In other words, I don't think cutting soda and candy out of your diet have the same value as moving from grains to no grains. Both are probably important, but it seems to me that the soda and candy are MORE important than the grains, that cutting wheat is *likely* more important than cutting rice, and so on. In the example the OP gives, and as other posters have mentioned, to move from a more processed diet to a more whole food diet is most likely beneficial, even if the diet moved to (i.e., a vegan diet) isn't the *optimal* human diet.

    3) My own anecdotal evidence is that my vegan friends - I have several - do not look healthy to me. They are thin, but they seem very drawn in the face, with sunken eyes and pale skin. I haven't noticed their teeth. This observation is, admittedly, worth pretty little; I don't know exactly what they eat, what supplements they take, etc., but I am struck, every time I see them, with how unhealthy they look to me. I noticed this even before going primal myself.

    4) Although I wouldn't choose to be vegan myself, I do admire the fact that vegans -- at least the ones I know -- choose the diet and lifestyle for reasons of strong personal conviction (even if there is some valid debate about the relative worth of some of those choices.) I think people who are willing to "walk the walk" in that way should be commended, because I think a) their hearts tend to be in the right place and b) it's a tough way to live, I think, and they tend to be very committed to it, which I admire.

  8. #18
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    I think one has to remember all the other factors contributing to wellness, some of the oldest people on the planet are not Paleo & probably don't even know what it means, it is more likely that they had the benefit of other lifestyle factors, so it makes me question all the fuss some individuals go to with their Paleo approach, how much is this actually detracting from their progress, state of mind, stress, lifestyle, relationships etc. etc., how much is Paleo driving your life?
    I do wonder if generally Paleo, relaxed, slightly "cuddly", mixed moderate exercise is not the best kind of direction for an overall personal best in the life stakes.
    My general direction currently is Paleo with a dash of Raw foodies and traditional diet (Weston A Price) overtones, but this is still an evolving process for me.
    On the original question of Vegans, I have done enough research to satisfy myself that this direction is flawed, unless one is fully informed and takes the appropriate supplements with regular checkups, even then there is a risk of malnutrition in my opinion.



    Great contribution there Omni.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosencrantz1 View Post
    A few things come to mind in a thread like this:

    1) There is ample anecdotal evidence to support many diets. What this indicates, to me, is just how adaptable we are when it comes to diet. Makes sense, though, that we would be so adaptable - it's part of why we've been able to thrive as a species, I would think.

    2) I feel, at times, that the relative importance of different elements of diet gets overlooked. In other words, I don't think cutting soda and candy out of your diet have the same value as moving from grains to no grains. Both are probably important, but it seems to me that the soda and candy are MORE important than the grains, that cutting wheat is *likely* more important than cutting rice, and so on. In the example the OP gives, and as other posters have mentioned, to move from a more processed diet to a more whole food diet is most likely beneficial, even if the diet moved to (i.e., a vegan diet) isn't the *optimal* human diet.

    3) My own anecdotal evidence is that my vegan friends - I have several - do not look healthy to me. They are thin, but they seem very drawn in the face, with sunken eyes and pale skin. I haven't noticed their teeth. This observation is, admittedly, worth pretty little; I don't know exactly what they eat, what supplements they take, etc., but I am struck, every time I see them, with how unhealthy they look to me. I noticed this even before going primal myself.

    4) Although I wouldn't choose to be vegan myself, I do admire the fact that vegans -- at least the ones I know -- choose the diet and lifestyle for reasons of strong personal conviction (even if there is some valid debate about the relative worth of some of those choices.) I think people who are willing to "walk the walk" in that way should be commended, because I think a) their hearts tend to be in the right place and b) it's a tough way to live, I think, and they tend to be very committed to it, which I admire.
    Great post.
    Here is what I think.
    1. No one knows what optimal human diet is, although lots of people would claim they do.
    2. What should a healthy person look like? How do we judge that? What looks healthy to me may not be healthy to you. I go to North America and people tell me I need to eat more because I am too skinny and probably something is wrong with me. I go to EU and I am considered normal. I go to Africa and I get comments that I am sick. This is all cultural in my opinion. Can an obese looking person be healthy but just look obese? Maybe they don't have any health issues?
    3. All the vegans I know are vegans not for health reasons. I am quite aware that there are people who do that for health reasons without fully understanding that there are certain supplementations they may have to take and those are the ones who get in trouble. Having said that there are lots of vegans who thrive on vegan diet, as I have seen many not just by looking at their physical appearance but also seeing their blood work results. But yes I know many people here don't believe in blood result numbers.

  10. #20
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