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Thread: So What Rreally Causes Plaque? page

  1. #1
    Artbuc's Avatar
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    So What Rreally Causes Plaque?

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    I have been reading this forum, blog and links to many papers. Seems like there is a growing consensus that high LDL-C is not the bad actor that CW says it is. But, I am not sure if there is a growing consensus on the real cause:

    1. Is it LDL-P? Some say it is the total number of LDL particles. The higher concentration of particles means more particles hitting the arterial inner wall.

    2. Is it LDL particle size? Some say plaque increases when the LDL particle size is such that it just fits into the arterial wall openings where it gets stuck and degrades. Also, LDL receptors preferentially receive a certain particle size making other sizes stay in the blood longer allowing them to oxidatively degrade.

    3. Is it high refined carb diet causing inflammatory damage which triggers the immune system to deposit plaque.

    4. Is it too many free radicals causing excessive oxidative degradation with the degradation by-products forming plaque?

    Or, is it some combination of the above?

    In any event, it seems like no one knows for sure what causes plaque and what we can do to prevent it.

    What do you folks believe is true?

  2. #2
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    Well dyslipidemia is definitely a contributor and that is characterized by Low HDL, elevated LDL (pattern B small dense) and high triglycerides.

    Chronically elevated insulin levels will also cause problems and if sugar (particularly fructose) stays in the blood too long it can cause damage.

    Endogenous and exdogenous free radical production will also play a role. Fructose is 7 times more effective at forming AGE's than glucose, heating unstable fat at high temperatures wil also lead to the production of free radicals. These can cause cellular damage and DNA damage.

    A poor omega 3 - 6 balance will also cause excessive chronic inflammation. Eicosanoids (cell to cell signalling molecules) derived from Omega 6's tend to be more pro-inflammatory and there are way too many omega 6's in the western diet. Reducing vegetable oils and grains helps so does conosuming more fish, free range eggs, vegetables and grass fed meat.

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    All the factors mentioned above seem to be contributers to the issue of raised cholesterol, plaque formation & Chronic Heart Disease risk (CHD). I've read that particle size (LDL-P) are the best indicator of CHD risk, and those at most risk are people that have low LDL-C & High LDL-P.
    As for the formation of the plaque, that is the question, is it formed merely because there is an excess of oxidised cholesterol and the body is just trying to get it out of the blood or is the body forming plaque for a specific purpose.
    The latter seems to make more sense as the body has the capability to simply shut down production if there is too much in the bloodstream.
    One of the arguments on this I have read is why doesn't the plaque simply back up in less critical areas like say your left hand, it mostly seems to form in the Coronary & Carotid arteries, that is those that feed the Heart & Brain, the two most critical organs of the body, surely this is the last place you would start to pile up rubbish. The link below is Dr Stephanie Seneff and she has some interesting theories on this area amongst others.
    Stephanie Seneff's Home Page
    If you look at the powerpoint presentation "2 - The Silver Lining in Chronic Disease", from slide 59 she gives a brief description of her theory on this, there are other papers which go into more detail as well, but it is a theory, so not conclusive at this stage.
    Basically her theories primarilly revolve around Cholesterol Sulphate deficiency caused by bad high carb diet, inadequate sunlight exposure & low sulphur availability in diet & plaque formation is specifically to produce cholesterol sulphate for the heart as the alternative is immediate heart failure. A potentially blocked artery in 10 years time is less of an issue than death now.

    Some of her ideas are a little "Out There", but most seem to have a fairly logical basis, I have been searching around trying to find support & verification for her ideas, no luck, but as the question still remains to be answered, her ideas haven't been ruled out either.
    One thing in particular that I would like to verify is:
    Does plaque form mostly in the Coronary & Carotid arteries?
    I have seen it referenced in various ways, but not stated in that way, if one could verify that part then the concept that plaque is a positive action rather than a negative action would be a more likely scenario.
    Last edited by Omni; 06-11-2012 at 07:36 AM.

  4. #4
    Artbuc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    All the factors mentioned above seem to be contributers to the issue of raised cholesterol, plaque formation & Chronic Heart Disease risk (CHD). I've read that particle size (LDL-P) are the best indicator of CHD risk, and those at most risk are people that have low LDL-C & High LDL-P.
    As for the formation of the plaque, that is the question, is it formed merely because there is an excess of oxidised cholesterol and the body is just trying to get it out of the blood or is the body forming plaque for a specific purpose.
    The latter seems to make more sense as the body has the capability to simply shut down production if there is too much in the bloodstream.
    One of the arguments on this I have read is why doesn't the plaque simply back up in less critical areas like say your left hand, it mostly seems to form in the Coronary & Carotid arteries, that is those that feed the Heart & Brain, the two most critical organs of the body, surely this is the last place you would start to pile up rubbish. The link below is Dr Stephanie Seneff and she has some interesting theories on this area amongst others.
    Stephanie Seneff's Home Page
    If you look at the powerpoint presentation "2 - The Silver Lining in Chronic Disease", from slide 59 she gives a brief description of her theory on this, there are other papers which go into more detail as well, but it is a theory, so not conclusive at this stage.
    Basically her theories primarilly revolve around Cholesterol Sulphate deficiency caused by bad high carb diet, inadequate sunlight exposure & low sulphur availability in diet & plaque formation is specifically to produce cholesterol sulphate for the heart as the alternative is immediate heart failure. A potentially blocked artery in 10 years time is less of an issue than death now.

    Some of her ideas are a little "Out There", but most seem to have a fairly logical basis, I have been searching around trying to find support & verification for her ideas, no luck, but as the question still remains to be answered, her ideas haven't been ruled out either.
    One thing in particular that I would like to verify is:
    Does plaque form mostly in the Coronary & Carotid arteries?
    I have seen it referenced in various ways, but not stated in that way, if one could verify that part then the concept that plaque is a positive action rather than a negative action would be a more likely scenario.
    There is also PAD so I guess plaque forms in the arteries going to the limbs. I don't want to take statins because of side effects but I have come to believe statins are effective in reducing the risk of a CVD event by reducing cholesterol and/or inflammation. It is a tough call for me. I think it is problematic for people to scoff at previous theories when they really don't fundamentally understand what is going on.

  5. #5
    Omni's Avatar
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    Good point about PAD, should have thought of that, doesn't discount her ideas completely, but makes them more unlikely.
    My mother in law (73) was recently started on statins because of high cholesterol and small plaque areas were identified, we are trying to get her to change her diet a bit to help as her liver enzymes went up as soon as she started on Statins, she has reduced her dose to 1/4 of the original. She is very fit & active, doesn't drink or smoke, eats plenty of fruit & Veg, but likes her processed carbs, lathers everything with vegetable oil and virtually never eats fish. So we have given her fish oil, vitamin D (tested very low), CoEnzyme Q10 & Acetyl L Carnitine as supplements as well as the diet changes which she is slowly adopting.

    I understand where you are, it's one thing giving an opinion, but it is something else when you personally have to make what seems a make or break decision about your own health, particularly when the two spheres of advice are polar opposites. The data is out there that Statins do definately reduce cholesterol levels very effectively, but the question still remains of whether this actually has any significant effect on reducing heart disease risk and how much Statins actually increase "all cause" mortality risk.
    Have you been struggling with high cholesterol for a long time & how long have you been on diet changes?
    Last edited by Omni; 06-11-2012 at 03:48 PM.

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    If anyone should take statins it's me - male, middleaged, previous vascular event. I don't because they were debilitating.

    From all my reading, vitamins d3 and k2 are very important in preventing dangerous plaque formation.

    I also focus on a highly nutritious, low inflammation diet with specific additives to promote thin blood - fish for O3 and cocoa, turmeric and red wine. There is nothing more nutritious than animal organs
    Four years Primal with influences from Jaminet & Shanahan and a focus on being anti-inflammatory. Using Primal to treat CVD and prevent stents from blocking free of drugs.

    Eat creatures nose-to-tail (animal, fowl, fish, crustacea, molluscs), a large variety of vegetables (raw, cooked and fermented, including safe starches), dairy (cheese & yoghurt), occasional fruit, cocoa, turmeric & red wine

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