Cold Water for Fat Loss, Muscle Recovery, and Increased Metabolism Thread page 29

[Omni]

Yep. It is what is referred to as nutritional ketosis, a deep sustained state.

The formula is Ideal Weight in kilos=grams of protein/day take this with a plus/minus 10% range as your target.
For carbs, Ideal Weight divided by 2 is the upper end target to shoot for
For fat, Ideal Weight times anywhere between 2 and 3.5 depending on weight loss goals (high end to gain, middle for maintenance, low end to lose)

It's pretty powerful stuff. I'm doing it in order to be able to reduce my dependence on anti-seizure meds. 25% reduction so far with no ill effects.

Thanks,
I haven't really taken too much time to add up my intakes, did a rough calc a while back and reckon I'm around the 100-150g of Carbs, so in the maintenance range, maybe dipped lower some days, so my only real keto times are in the fasting state, but probably no significant GlucoGenesis.
Will take note for future reference.

[BestBetter]

I know I sound like a broken record for repeatedly posting how amazing I'm dealing with the heat, but I continued to be impressed with my body's ability to adjust to such a wide range of temps after doing the ice baths.

One reason I'm so stuck on this is because I have MS. Most folks with MS are VERY heat sensitive. In fact, before we had technology like MRIs and lumbar punctures, the main method of diagnosing it was to stick the person in a hot water bath; if it induced instant fatigue that prevented them from being able to get out, they got slapped with the diagnosis.

After a week of 100 degree weather, now that it's in the high 80s, I actually miss the heat!

In other news, got some nasty tendonitis (self-diagnosis) in my knee. I'm going to see if daily ice packs speed recovery time. I know I must have read this somewhere ages ago, but is there any healing benefit to cold baths (50-55F tap water), not ice baths? Now that I'm staying at my in-laws, I've got access to a sweeeet tub, but no ability to make or buy ice (they don't sell ice in Italy, can you believe it!) I know ice water speeds recovery, but I don't remember if there's a benefit to UN-iced cold water.

[Paysan]

Yes, cold water will suck heat out of you faster than cold still air of the same temperature but the cold air *will* suck heat out of you and a fan's 15 mph wind will suck it out quite fast while still slower than water. Unlike liquid fresh water, which is never below freezing, an air stream at freezing temperatures can freeze your flesh solid in "a New York minute". So don't do naked wind chill in freezing air. In extreme cold weather, liquid fresh water would be safer.

Thank you for this caution, Jamous. It wouldn't have occurred to me to beware of air temperature as much as water temperature. Still, it's skin temperature that you need to watch, since I believe 55F is the target for most people. You are courting hypothermia below that - small wonder you acted drunk at 47C.. Your core temperature dropped too low, and that is downright dangerous. My mate is already subject to that, and at 92F, is incapable of doing anything till warmed up.

When the air temperature is at the target of 55 F or lower what I do with fans will bring my naked skin to that temperature and keep it there for as long as I can stay in the air stream. It takes longer to do it than with water however. I may be in the stream for 10 minutes before my skin gets to the target temperature. There is therefore no sudden cold shock but Just as with water the colder the temperature the deeper the chill and the more the blood in my arms and legs will be sequestered from the cold yielding a stronger after chill as it is returned.

With my cardiac problems, that is likely too much shock to my system. But if what's-his-name figures even 80F water brings benefits, and I am sitting in air temps of 70F (and less with a/c blowing directly on me), I am hopeful to gain some benefits w/o severe stress.

[

A good air conditioner will produce air at about 40 F. Expose some of your naked skin to an air conditioner for a few minutes. Then think about a whole body air bath with a 15 mph air stream front and rear at that temperature. So yes, cold air wind chill will work for what I am after. I had dramatic positive sleep changes and reduced systemic inflammation mere days after I started cold wind sessions in May.

I like the freedom of movement that I have standing up in the air stream.
I like being dry and ready to go as soon as I switch off the fans.
I like not having to maintain a cold tub.

I don't know how cold my unheated pool will get this winter but I will watch the temps now that I care and maybe give swimming in it a go too.

If I still had a pool, it would freeze solid and stay there most of winter. So then ice skating, not ice dipping, might be more appropriate.;-) Regardless, I've always stood cold better than heat. This n=1 experiment is interesting.

[Jamous]

In other news, got some nasty tendonitis (self-diagnosis) in my knee. I'm going to see if daily ice packs speed recovery time. I know I must have read this somewhere ages ago, but is there any healing benefit to cold baths (50-55F tap water), not ice baths? Now that I'm staying at my in-laws, I've got access to a sweeeet tub, but no ability to make or buy ice (they don't sell ice in Italy, can you believe it!) I know ice water speeds recovery, but I don't remember if there's a benefit to UN-iced cold water.

If you have access to 50-55 F tap water and a large tub to fit in the whole body then you are *golden*.
That is the experimental skin temperature range that produces the favorable hormonal changes.
Go for whole body cooling because that will do more for your inflammation than just spot icing. I speak also from personal experience. It may be easier to do as well.

Lucky you, you have a fountain of youth in your dwelling!

[Paysan]

Man, talk about being confused. On the one hand, Kruse discourages cardiac patients from doing cold thermogenesis. OTOH, he bragged that CT 7 on his blog would show such people just how beneficial CT is - how the whole pix fits together. I never considered myself stupid, but some of his verbal shorthand is leaving me still confused. I'm sure some pieces of the puzzle must be hiding under bigger pieces, and I need to rearrange some pieces to see the whole picture. If anybody else has good translation skills and wants to pop in, I'd appreciate the assist.
Dumkoff Paysan

[ljbprrfmof]

Paysan

I understand he has some podcasts available for his different blog series. I know he is hard to read, but listening to him, his intelligence shines through.

[quelsen]

Man, talk about being confused. On the one hand, Kruse discourages cardiac patients from doing cold thermogenesis. OTOH, he bragged that CT 7 on his blog would show such people just how beneficial CT is - how the whole pix fits together. I never considered myself stupid, but some of his verbal shorthand is leaving me still confused. I'm sure some pieces of the puzzle must be hiding under bigger pieces, and I need to rearrange some pieces to see the whole picture. If anybody else has good translation skills and wants to pop in, I'd appreciate the assist.
Dumkoff Paysan

as an MD he absolutely cannot recommend some things openly.

he would get sued

read everything critically and make your own choice.

[otzi]

Man, talk about being confused. On the one hand, Kruse discourages cardiac patients from doing cold thermogenesis. OTOH, he bragged that CT 7 on his blog would show such people just how beneficial CT is - how the whole pix fits together. I never considered myself stupid, but some of his verbal shorthand is leaving me still confused. I'm sure some pieces of the puzzle must be hiding under bigger pieces, and I need to rearrange some pieces to see the whole picture. If anybody else has good translation skills and wants to pop in, I'd appreciate the assist.
Dumkoff Paysan

Here is a blog from a young lady who was as confused as you, she put together a bunch or resources for people curious about using the cold to their advantage: Resources on Cold Adaptation | Intoxicated on Life

A recent article This View of Life: Take a Cold Shower! states that:
"The benefits of a cold shower, while largely anecdotal, are recommended for everything from hangovers to excessive libidos. Despite its reputation as a quasi-folk remedy, recent research suggests exposure to cold water may help treat depression, anxiety and even attention-deficit disorders. The invigorating effects of cold water are apparent to all of us who have accidentally opened the cold tap in the shower or purposefully jumped into a swimming pool. The shock of cold water on our skin generates an active and near immediate response from our sympathetic nervous system, the activity of which is regulated in the brain through the release of signaling molecules called neurotransmitters. Norepinephrine is the primary neurotransmitter responsible for the sympathetic “fight or flight” responses we experience during times of stress, panic and anger. The activity of the sympathetic nervous system can also be elicited by environmental stressors, like exposure to cold temperatures. Norepinephrine is synthesized primarily in the locus coeruleus, a part of the brainstem in constant communication with most of the brain."


When I started this thread, I'd hoped we could keep it a Kruse-Free zone. I wanted to focus on Mark Sisson's view of cold water therapy. All Mark's articles are linked on the first page, I believe. If you want to get in over your head, visit Home | JackKruse.com . Keep in mind Dr. Kruse in not interested in simple weight-loss and general health. His optic is a healthy gut and central nervous system stimulation via evolutionary pathways in order to heal the most metabolically deranged folks. Much of what he says is easily taken out of context. He may prescribe a course of action for a post-menopausal woman with hashimoto's that is not right for a healthy young man who is 20lbs overweight.

[otzi]

Funny enough, this is in today's news. Stanford researchers' cooling glove 'better than steroids'

"The method is more convenient than, say, full-body submersion in ice water, and avoids the pitfalls of other rapid palm-cooling strategies. Because blood flow to the AVAs can be nearly shut off in cold weather, making the hand too cold will have almost no effect on core temperature. Cooling, Grahn says, is therefore a delicate balance.

"We built a silly device, took it over to the recovery room and, lo and behold, it worked beyond our wildest imaginations," Heller explained. "Whereas it was taking them hours to re-warm patients coming into the recovery room, we were doing it in eight, nine minutes."

But the glove's effects on athletic performance didn't become apparent until the researchers began using the glove to cool a member of the lab – the confessed "gym rat" and frequent coauthor Vinh Cao – between sets of pull-ups. The glove seemed to nearly erase his muscle fatigue; after multiple rounds, cooling allowed him to do just as many pull-ups as he did the first time around. So the researchers started cooling him after every other set of pull-ups.

"Then in the next six weeks he went from doing 180 pull-ups total to over 620," said Heller. "That was a rate of physical performance improvement that was just unprecedented."

The researchers applied the cooling method to other types of exercise – bench press, running, cycling. In every case, rates of gain in recovery were dramatic, without any evidence of the body being damaged by overwork – hence the "better than steroids" claim. Versions of the glove have since been adopted by the Stanford football and track and field teams, as well as other college athletics programs, the San Francisco 49ers, the Oakland Raiders and Manchester United soccer club.

[otzi]

Here's another great resource. They are selling cooling vests for the general public...not just the big sports teams.

https://www.coolfatburner.com//

Lots of science links and pics.