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Thread: Why did Totalitarian Agriculture take hold 10,000 years ago? page 2

  1. #11
    Tribal Rob's Avatar
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    Well to wade in with my 2 pence worth (I think that's a UK 10c )

    I think agriculture meant power and status for leaders and protection and security for followers and jobs hitting people on the head for those that like violence but don't have the brains to lead. A larger group can be controlled than in a HG tribe, meaning the strong leader/s (or mad dictators) has more power, more people to control and thus more personal security/comfort in their life (taxes) so there is their motivation for begining to form this type of society. Those that want a quite life will seek the protection and security of a stong leader, giving up their freedom in exhange. This system is reinfoced by those that loved to hunt and risk life and limb in adrenalie fueled battle with prey or predator or fellow human seeing an opportuninty to do this full time and not have to worry about providing their own food, they protect the masses as full time warrior and keep the masses in line as policemen/hired goons.

    That process makes logical sence to me, though it is only based on my observations and interpretations of how the world today works - small group of people with most of the power/wealth, most people go along with the system as they think they are better off this way, a number of people act as enforcerers for the system.

    I am a full card carrying conspiray thoery hippy nutjob though*



    *this disclaimer is made to throw off the govenment who are watching our every more ;D
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  2. #12
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    I wonder if copper had something to do with it.

    World's oldest Copper Age settlement found - Hindustan Times

  3. #13
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    ~12,000 years ago is, I believe, the time that a chance mutation happened in wheat in a region in the middle east. Scientists looked at the DNA of that type of wheat and worked out that this mutation made the grain stick to the head of the wheat instead of dropping off easily. This would have been a fatal mutation otherwise, but for the fact that people found these grains easier to gather than the ones that had fallen to the ground, but they still dropped some of what they gathered and the mutation was passed on and eventually people began to deliberately keep and cultivate the seeds.

    ~12,000 years old is also the reported age of the oldest known carved stone temple/gathering place, nearby where this mutation happened. Can't remember the name of the place off the top of my head but the stones are intricately carved and huge, so are evidence that there was already a division of labour at the same time as this wheat revolution was happening. There may already have been a glut of food thanks to domestication of livestock or other types of crops perhaps.

  4. #14
    CaveWeirdo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tribal Rob View Post
    Well to wade in with my 2 pence worth (I think that's a UK 10c )
    I call it tuppence. It's not just a Mary Poppins thing, some Brits still say it!

  5. #15
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    jkr
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    Amazon.com: Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies (9780393317558): Jared M. Diamond: Books

    Jared Diamond convincingly argues that geographical and environmental factors shaped the modern world. Societies that had had a head start in food production advanced beyond the hunter-gatherer stage, and then developed religion --as well as nasty germs and potent weapons of war --and adventured on sea and land to conquer and decimate preliterate cultures. A major advance in our understanding of human societies, Guns, Germs, and Steel chronicles the way that the modern world came to be and stunningly dismantles racially based theories of human history. Winner of the Pulitzer Prize, the Phi Beta Kappa Award in Science, the Rhone-Poulenc Prize, and the Commonwealth club of California's Gold Medal.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkr View Post
    Amazon.com: Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies (9780393317558): Jared M. Diamond: Books

    Jared Diamond convincingly argues that geographical and environmental factors shaped the modern world. Societies that had had a head start in food production advanced beyond the hunter-gatherer stage, and then developed religion --as well as nasty germs and potent weapons of war --and adventured on sea and land to conquer and decimate preliterate cultures. A major advance in our understanding of human societies, Guns, Germs, and Steel chronicles the way that the modern world came to be and stunningly dismantles racially based theories of human history. Winner of the Pulitzer Prize, the Phi Beta Kappa Award in Science, the Rhone-Poulenc Prize, and the Commonwealth club of California's Gold Medal.
    I found him trying to appeal to white guilt a bit too heavily.

    What I found compelling was his argument about how Eurasian civilizations were destined to dominate the world. Eurasia had the easiest time developing agriculture for at least 2 good reasons: Eurasia's broad reaches of latitude contributed to easy spread of agriculture by virtue of less hybridization being required, and of the world's (dozen or so) staple crops, all but 3 originated there. Unlike Australia, North and South America, and Africa, Eurasia had animals suitable for domestication, and via easy vectors of disease transmission from domesticated animals to their human masters, exposure resulted in an increased resistance to disease to which indigenous peoples on other continents succumbed. Further, its the large land mass led to easy warfare by a multitude of nations being able to walk to the attack thus fostering mastery of weapon design and application. All these combined to give the "guns, germs, and steel" advantage that led to easy subjugation of the rest of the world.
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man is Truth View Post
    haha dude what about the asians?
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    Lewis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveWeirdo View Post
    ... mutation made the grain stick to the head of the wheat instead of dropping off easily.
    That the grain "waits for the reaper".

    A very small percentage of wild grain tends not to fall easily. Most of it not doing so in cultivated grain is an (unintentional) artifact of gathering it and carrying around over a number of generations. See, for example, After The Ice:

    Amazon.com: After the Ice: A Global Human History 20,000-5000 BC (9780674019997): Steven Mithen: Books

    I think you have to see people as exploiting a variety of different foodstuffs obtained through a variety of different strategies. One or more may come to predominate at different times, depending on a number of factors. No one, as it were, sits down and decides on a form of life -- although reading some writers on archaeology of the recent past one might think so. It embodies an anachronism, because whatever the advantages of a particular form of life might be how would you know what they were in advance? It seems to have been the influence of V. Gordon Childe, and indirectly Marxism, that tended to make people think in that way.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by AyaPapaya View Post
    BC = Before Christ
    BCE = Before the Common Era

    Means the same thing...just takes the religious reference out of it.
    Common Era is meaningless outside the Christian context. Other religions employ their own dating system. Look at an Arabic coin sometime, and you will see something like "2005 ~ ١٤٢٦" on them, the latter part being 1426AH.

    AD and BC are only common to Christians. Trying to pretend otherwise is delusional.

  10. #20
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    I suspect it's our own fault. Why did all the megafauna disappear at the end of the Pleistocene? Why did almost all the large marsupials disappear from Australia? Why did the giant birds disappear from the Pacific islands? What happened to the dodo?

    We had to turn to agriculture, because we'd killed off much of our preferred food.

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