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  1. #21
    Fletch666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OutdoorAmy View Post
    I suck at swallowing pills! (Anything bigger than m&m and I just can't it down)
    Most of the potassium suplements I've seen are pretty small, much smaller than M&Ms. You might find it's difficult to get enough potassium and meet your low carb goals.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    How does one know that ones's insulin sensitivity is being impacted?
    I got sugar-style rushes from eating lower-fat meat- like I had just eaten a bowl of candy. If I actually had sugar, I basically passed out- severe lightheadedness, nausea, etc.

    How do you know that increasing your carbs made you feel better mood and energy wise because ketosis was "not working" and not because you just needed more calories to fuel your intense level of physical training? It's difficult to get enough calories if you are lean and working out strenuously without adding some carb unless you are gong to eat 24 oz steaks covered in butter for every meal.
    I was eating up to 6k calories a day, mostly from fat- I was VLC/ZC for ~18mos. I was literally drinking butter and other fats. Bear in mind, I do no "cardio" type things- just an active lifestyle and lifting weights(low reps). I lost 20+ pounds of muscle in ketosis. My mood was the real tell- the instant I started eating carbs, my mood skyrocketed, and cutting carbs out drops it within days.

    I totally agree that lean, very active individuals with healthy metabolisms often do better with adding carbs. But that doesn't mean that ketosis is necessarily harmful to everyone or anyone. I know you (AP) didn't say it was but some of the carb pushers have been lately.
    Sure- ketosis is good for some, and not for other, and many people fall in between. However, we also know which groups tend to do better on each. If an 19 yo athelete feels terrible in ketosis, I'm going to tell them to eat some primal carbs. If someone is in ketosis bc they have epilespy, then they need to stay in it and figure it out. In between, it's more of a discussion.

    I do understand why people who had experience like mine are anti-ketosis, though. If I had been more prone to depression, that mood drop could have caused real problems(we're talking going from a 8 to a 4 on a 10 point scale), and in a certain cases, that insulin sensitivity could have caused issues, too. If I was driving, and reached down to grab my Zevia, and got my passengers coke instead, that swig would be bad. A contrived situation, yes, but there are risks for some.

    FWIW, I lost significant fat when I re-introduced carbs.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apex Predator View Post
    I was eating up to 6k calories a day, mostly from fat- I was VLC/ZC for ~18mos. I was literally drinking butter and other fats. Bear in mind, I do no "cardio" type things- just an active lifestyle and lifting weights(low reps). I lost 20+ pounds of muscle in ketosis. My mood was the real tell- the instant I started eating carbs, my mood skyrocketed, and cutting carbs out drops it within days.

    Sure- ketosis is good for some, and not for other, and many people fall in between. However, we also know which groups tend to do better on each. If an 19 yo athelete feels terrible in ketosis, I'm going to tell them to eat some primal carbs. If someone is in ketosis bc they have epilespy, then they need to stay in it and figure it out. In between, it's more of a discussion.

    I do understand why people who had experience like mine are anti-ketosis, though.
    Oh my, Apex. That is a bit extreme. I wonder if perhaps with most of your calories coming from fat that way, you might have been suffering from a lack of protein plus other vitamins/minerals.

    Totally agree with you about the young stud needing more carbs. I just take exception when one of them tells me I need more carbs.

    I'm glad you found the mix that works for you.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helen277 View Post
    You're staying hydrated and keeping your electrolyte levels up? This seems to be where most people go wrong when attempting to eat VLC. (Well, other than eating too much protein and not enough fat.)
    Meaning how's that?

    Well, for example, this seems to be where the Swedish researchers went wrong back in the 60s when working with athletes. They didn't measure their performance on low carb over a long period -- but that was partly because they fed them lean steak, and after awhile people just can't stomach that, so they couldn't get people to do it for more than a few days.

    It's not so much a percentage thing. You just work out how much protein you need to preserve lean body mass. Mark's formula, for example, would do for that (0.7 g of protein per day for every pound of lean bodymass). You eat less than 50 g of carbs per day. The rest comes from fat. So protein and carbs are more-or-less fixed, but fat fluctuates according to how many calories you eat.

    So let's say someone needs 90g of protein. If he or she going VLC for weight-loss, then they might not eat much and that 90 g might represent 30% or more of calories as protein -- that's fine because, effectively, the fat's coming off their gut/butt. If they're at their target weight and going VLC for other reasons, then they need to eat more calories, will need to eat them as fat, and that 90 g probably represents 15 to 20% of calories. The person in the second situation (not a weight-loss person but say a sportsperson) -- someone who might be eating, say, 3000 kcal per day -- had better not try to meet that large calorific requirement by munching on lean steak.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Oh my, Apex. That is a bit extreme. I wonder if perhaps with most of your calories coming from fat that way, you might have been suffering from a lack of protein plus other vitamins/minerals.

    Totally agree with you about the young stud needing more carbs. I just take exception when one of them tells me I need more carbs.

    I'm glad you found the mix that works for you.
    It's possible that vitamins and minerals may have been lacking, though I added in carbs as white rice and potatoes mostly, which aren't exactly nutritional powerhouses. Protein wasn't an issue-often 200+ g a day, though now with carbs I can use less than half of that and still gain muscle.

    Ketosis is great for some people, not for others- I'm glad people find what works for them.

  6. #26
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    I think short-term ketosis diets are great for losing weight, although I would be concerned about gut bacteria dying off in the absence of fiber. Of course you'd be killing off any bad bacteria too, so you could make the most of it by treating it as a 'detox'. If I were you I'd do a 100% clean diet for 2 weeks and take lots of activated charcoal tablets (or anything else you think works well as a 'cleanser'). Then make sure to add back veggie carbs gradually afterwards, and take a probiotic.

    You can never fully kick the carb addiction, there's always a danger of succumbing to cravings since food is everywhere and our natural instinct tells us to binge just in case the food goes away. I find the key is to replace it with a different addiction that has more positive effects. Runner's high, workaholism, DIY or hobby obsession - these are all good addictions to try!

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Oh my, Apex. That is a bit extreme. I wonder if perhaps with most of your calories coming from fat that way, you might have been suffering from a lack of protein plus other vitamins/minerals.

    Totally agree with you about the young stud needing more carbs. I just take exception when one of them tells me I need more carbs.

    I'm glad you found the mix that works for you.
    Well, I agree with you except that we're not all young studs! I'm a woman, almost 35, and definitely not running on the high testosterone levels that some of the young guys around here are. However, I think the difference is that I am also highly active and I have never been obese or had any other indicators of metabolic syndrome (my lucky disease of civilization is celiac). I've also never been a sugar binge type. And I don't have anything like epilepsy that is markedly improved by going VLC.

    I also think that we tend to say "highly active" and are unclear what kind of activity we're discussing. There's a big difference between an endurance activity such as cycling and lifting, HIIT, or sprinting. There's some good evidence that training on lower carbs can give endurance athletes some advantage on race day (train low, race high). But for other kinds of activity, the body can't tap into the fat stores quickly enough, and unless there's enough down time between workouts to replenish glycogen stores more slowly through gluconeogenesis, that athlete will likely need more carbs to replenish their stock more quickly.

    I have no problem with respecting other people's success on VLC. But I find that for every "carb pusher" there's also a VLC fanatic who insists to me repeatedly that I must have somehow been doing it wrong when I never adapted despite a couple of months trying (and yes, I ate loads of fat, I had sufficient protein, and I drink lots of water and eat salt).

    I'm unwilling to continue to feel crappy for a year or more on someone's assertion that I will eventually magically feel better when the simple solution for me is to include primal carbs in reasonable quantities. My health markers are great, I continue to lean out, I look and feel vital and energetic, and I can comfortably fast when I want, so why would I suffer through a year of hell (physically, mentally, and emotionally) when I can just eat some carbs and be healthy and happy now?

    This isn't specifically directed at you, Paleobird. I know you respect that not everyone eats your way. But I do sort of take exception at the idea that only the "young studs" can eat carbs.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owly View Post
    I also think that we tend to say "highly active" and are unclear what kind of activity we're discussing. There's a big difference between an endurance activity such as cycling and lifting, HIIT, or sprinting.
    That seems to be what Dr. Phinney found with the racing cyclists.

    The untrained individuals he had on the treadmill did better after keto-adaptation, but the cyclists were effectively the same before and after -- except as regarded sprinting. So their VO2 max and time to exhaustion were unaffected by the change of diet, but after keto-adaptation, they were less inclined to put on a burst of speed to catch a traffic light.

    KGNU-How On Earth, Show: Exercise and Low Carb Diets (with Stephen Phinney)

    Interesting stuff. And discussed in more detail in that link than I've heard before. It's a shame there hasn't been much more work done on this.

    And in a sense done by Phinney "in the dark". He used an "Innuit Diet" as his ketogenic diet for the cyclists. But since no Innuit now eat in the traditional way, he had to extrapolate to the content by looking at the records of the Stefansson experiment where Stefansson ate "like an Innuit". But the records didn't record what Stefansson was eating in any detail -- only what his macronutrient ratios were.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by OutdoorAmy View Post
    I'm embarking on a two week ketosis diet and need some accountability and support. Have any of you tried this before? What have been your experiences?

    I'll be blogging about it on my primal/paleo lifestyle blog outdooramy.blospot.com . . .

    I'd love to get feedback and comments to help encourage me through it. Especially since I'm such a carb addict. LOL. (I say that in the same way alcoholics say they are still alcoholics even if they are sober).

    I've been stuck on a plateau for a while now and I'm hoping that this two weeks will be enough to kick start my weight loss again. I am starting this evening with a 24 hour fast.
    takes 3 - 6 weeks to become adapted...
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifegill View Post
    I'm wondering if two weeks is long enough to become adapted. If you've been doing a high-fat diet for some time, I suppose it might be plenty of time...

    But there are so many views about this! Some would tell you that you become ketogenic every time you fast, and it only takes a few hours or a day to get there, yet others will tell you it takes weeks. I don't know who to believe! Or maybe that's a newb body versus one that's been eating real food...

    I broke my last plateau by going very low carb for three or four days a week, then hitting the sweet potatoes at the end of the week. And it's working well. Well, that and rarely eating dairy, restricting nuts to once a week, and always eating high-fat, even on high-carb days. I do that mostly to spite Chocotaco. I'm at 5'9" and down to 171 pounds now, from 215. Up to one-armed chin-ups and forty push-ups, etc. But the last ten pounds of fat were dropped, I believe, by increasing my protein to about a pound of meat a day, and doing those few VLC days a week.

    OH! Almost forgot, during my work week I basically only eat one meal a day, sometimes a few avocados or some canned fish for my first break at work, still within a 5-hour eating window. And a small box of coconut milk in the morning (toward the end of my shift) for medium-chain triglyceride ketone fun.
    there is a huge difference in entering ketosis and becoming a ketogenic mammal.

    adapting means that your biologic imperative is to burn fat to create your glucose storage needs, entering ketossi means that you are temporarily out of the exogenous glucose for fuel
    Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

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