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  1. #281
    oxide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ribbons View Post
    I think I've binged enough. I want to do this without putting on weight, so it's probably better that I just increase my cals slowly.
    When I made the 900 calorie suggestion, it had nothing to do with losing weight, or not putting on weight. The goal was Eating Without Freaking.
    5'0" female, 43 years old. Started Primal October 31, 2011, at a skinny fat 111.5 lbs. Low weight: 99.5 lb on a fast. Current weight: skinny-fat 106.5 lbs because of sugar cheating.

    MY PRIMAL: I (try to) follow by-the-book primal as advocated by Mark Sisson, except for whey powder and a bit of cream. I aim for 80-90 g carb/day and advocate a two-month strict adjustment for newbies. But everybody is different and other need to tweak Primal to their own needs.

  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by billp View Post
    Because of course the extreme autistic focus is very useful in famine, as it really motivates the famine victim to find food - and famine was the rule for humanity until very recently. But create that famine yourself and there is a reasonable chance that you will get autistically obsessed with doing the thing that is starving you, rather than getting something to eat. And add some numbers into the mix and - whoosh, an autistic whirlwind that stands every chance of taking you down with with it, to death.

    Ribbons - these are the things you must do:

    1. Tell a doctor exactly how much you have eaten for the last three weeks. Do it now, this instant. Insist on going and don't take no for an answer. You are an emergency.
    2. Get signed off sick from school. Exams just happen a bit later. Happens all the time, especially with flu and sporting injuries.

    You don't want to die. You have your whole life ahead of you. You must do these things to save your own life. I have been looking through your old posts and it is frightening to see how you have changed in three weeks. Save yourself before it is too late.
    I'm scared to read my old posts now. I think I have some sort of amnesia because I honestly don't remember how long it's been since I posted this thread and I don't remember what I've eaten or how long I've been eating in different ways. So I don't think I could tell the doctor how much I've eaten. I can't postpone exams. The only way to pass year 12 without doing exams is if you have a good reason and then they take your marks from tests you've done throughout the year and make up a final score for you based on them. But since I haven't been doing well in school, that's probably not the best option. But don't worry, I'm really not in danger, I'm actually feeling quite calm at the moment.
    And I'll go to the doctor after exams so in around a week.
    Quote Originally Posted by oxide View Post
    When I made the 900 calorie suggestion, it had nothing to do with losing weight, or not putting on weight. The goal was Eating Without Freaking.
    Yeah I know, I was just referring to how binging would make me put on weight but slowly increasing my cals probably wouldn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by siakeia View Post
    Thing is, you don't actually need to loose weight. At your height, your weight is fine, and there are many women at your height/weight who look great.
    If I lost 10kg I'd still be in a healthy weight range and since I'm not happy with my weight, what would be the point in not trying to lose weight?

  3. #283
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    weight loss isn't relevant at this point.

    what is relevant is your mental health, and the physical health along with it since your mental state is leading you to harm your physical health, and therefore you need to get help for your mental health.

  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ribbons View Post
    Thanks. I know that purging is bad and I never plan to (attempt to) do it but if I've eaten a lot then I feel like I need to get rid of the food so it doesn't turn into fat. So I just need to stop binging and then I won't have this problem.
    Food doesn't just turn to fat. I have been eating unlimited meat, fat and green veg for nine months and I have used every loop on my belt, from the outermost to now the innermost. Of course if I actually starved myself like you have been doing then that would bias me to putting on fat, because that is a famine response. This is one of the many reasons why it is so bad to starve yourself.
    That would suck, having to have your parents drive you everywhere. It makes me appreciate public transport more now. I've wanted to move out for years but I don't have enough money or anywhere to go.
    In your current anorexic state, if you moved out of home you would probably be dead in two months. Something to think about after you are not anorexic any more.
    Yeah that's probably right but I can't postpone my exams without repeating yr 12 which I don't want to do, so the only thing I can do is find some way to get less stressed so I'll be a little less anxious about food maybe.
    I think it is funny how you value your own life less than having to repeat yr 12, if you even have to. Last time I did exams like that there were resits two months later for special cases where someone was sick or injured and not able to attend. You are most definitely in that category and no doctor would hesitate to sign the form making it so.
    Thanks, I already told my parents though (it might be a couple of pages back). And I'm talking to a counsellor online next week so I am getting help.
    It is better than nothing but you need real medical attention right away. Like someone said a few pages back, would you be doing this if you had cancer? What you have has a similar death rate to cancer and in your current untreated state will probably kill you before New Year. Part of the problem is people wait for so long before seeking help, by which time major damage has been done. What good are yr 12 exam results if you are dead? With help and treatment you can live a normal life and carry on with your studies and go to university. Without treatment at some point you will be strapped to a bed and force-fed, and if you live (many don't) you will still miss at least a year of university. I don't think you have thought about the real likely consequences.
    I do listen to the advice but sometimes I don't agree with it and sometimes I do, depending on what mood I'm in/how much I've eaten.
    Although it many not seem like it, this is why you need help so urgently. You are describing a symptom of mental illness. People who are not mentally ill agree with things based on whether it is right or wrong, not fluttering between based on a funny interaction of mood and food. That is mental degeneration in progress, caused by acute starvation.
    5'2. And I think I might have actually been 60kg because I saw that I wrote it down somewhere but that was all earlier, before starving and binging, so I don't know how much I weigh now.
    Go weigh yourself then, and tell us. No one here knows you. At the moment people here are assuming the worst because they don't have any hard data.
    I keep wanting to just stick to the PB so losing weight isn't so stressful but then I tell myself that I'm eating too much and I don't know how much is a good amount to eat unless I count calories but then I get obsessed with the number of calories I'm consuming so I quit that and try to go back to primal, and the cycle starts again.
    Counting calories is very dangerous, as it interrupts the body's normal hungry-feeding cycle and prompts a temporary autistic state obsessed with numbers. It will never be safe for you to count calories, not for the rest of your life - which I sincerely hope will be a long one and not cut short by your own stubbornness in the next few months!
    I haven't actually heard that theory from anyone except you. It makes sense though.
    That's because I only just invented it! I have been trying to understand Anorexia for a while, as I think what is commonly believed about it (regarding wanting to lose weight) is utterly contradicted by the historical evidence. I started thinking about something I have been calling Anorexia Realis months ago. I think because everyone is starting from the wrong principles about treating Anorexia (body image, weight loss etc.) it makes the treatment much less effective. Knowing what is really going on and not just what the victim has latched onto should make it more treatable. Of course the only real treatment is to eat lots and lots for a sustained period until the obsessive thoughts go and sanity returns - which it would totally do if you ate and ate.
    Haha obviously I don't have self control because I've binged twice in the last few days.
    Not really. You have been starving your self to death for three weeks by my reckoning, and were probably not eating enough significantly before that - the natural consequence of calorie counting instead of listening to your body. To do so shows self-control that is so far beyond the normal range as to be considered a mental illness. Just because the natural human processes of your body have broken through occasionally (what you call a binge) that hasn't stopped extreme self-control from dominating. To get out of this you will need to binge for about two continuous weeks.
    I stopped eating sugar this year because I think of it as a toxin
    Only toxic if you eat it all the time. I eat sugar. I think it is especially useful in the days after weightlifting, when I crave it. I think it is due to lots of sugar-intensive cell division going on to build and repair muscles.

    After the way you have treated yourself for the last three weeks, you will definitely need a lot of sugar in your diet for a while. Once you are no longer anorexic you can scale back on it. You will find that most of the people here are eating sugar after extreme exercise or physical trauma (i.e. like you).
    so I don't know if I actually like sugary food anymore or not. A few months ago a had a sugary biscuit on purpose though to see what would happen and I was actually so scared about eating it that I didn't even like it.
    I don't know what food I like... I guess I like carbs like pasta, bread, rice etc. but I feel like it's more of an addiction. I hope I'm not a food addict!
    As we must eat to live, there is no such thing as a food addict. I think your anorexic recovery is going to involve lots of carbs then, mostly rice by the sound if it, but it would totally be fine to have pasta and bread too. In your condition there is no reason to avoid wheat.

    Try eating a small bowl of plain rice. You can add a bit of salt and some butter, to taste. Don't measure it as weights and calories have been messing you up.
    Btw when I had pizza I didn't even like it but I couldn't stop eating it for some reason. I wasn't even hungry because I had almonds before that.
    That is an example of your natural bodily appetite breaking out of the mental chains you have locked it up with. Eating the pizza was a good thing, and I should hope you couldn't stop eating it. You need to do a lot more of that.
    Yeah, you're pretty close. I just realised I don't really notice the taste of food anymore.
    During a famine, not only does the food amount available fall, but the quality does too. To survive people need to be prepared to eat food that would otherwise have thrown away in times of plenty. So people stop caring about what food tastes like, only that it is food. You experiencing that is a sign that you are very very hungry indeed.
    Last edited by billp; 06-08-2012 at 03:52 AM.

  5. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ribbons View Post
    I'm scared to read my old posts now. I think I have some sort of amnesia because I honestly don't remember how long it's been since I posted this thread and I don't remember what I've eaten or how long I've been eating in different ways.
    You probably do have amnesia. Alcoholics get that too - the alcohol interferes with their metabolism so severely that their brain function is gradually more and more clouded. Not being able to remember stuff is new for you, isn't it? And you still hope to do your mid-year exams! No chance. Do you know what that amnesia is? It is death, creeping silently up on you. You must start eating immediately. You must seek immediate medical help.
    So I don't think I could tell the doctor how much I've eaten.
    Don't worry too much about that. Just do your best. Doesn't have to be accurate. Doctors are used to information being flaky in cases like yours.
    I can't postpone exams. The only way to pass year 12 without doing exams is if you have a good reason and then they take your marks from tests you've done throughout the year and make up a final score for you based on them.
    I don't actually believe you about it not being possible to postpone exams. I don't believe you have actually asked anyone if that was possible in cases of medical emergency. There are always emergencies coming up that cause people to need ot delay exams - illness, accidents, bereavements, etc. If it comes down to them averaging your marks for yr 12 and you are unhappy with the result, then you definitely could retake the year, even at a different school. I did at your age. You would be amazed at how much easier it makes it.
    But since I haven't been doing well in school, that's probably not the best option. But don't worry, I'm really not in danger, I'm actually feeling quite calm at the moment.
    You are clearly in very great danger indeed and feeling calm at the moment doesn't mean a damn thing. It is just a moment. It doesn't change the underlying position.
    And I'll go to the doctor after exams so in around a week.
    I don't believe you If you were willing to go you would have gone already. You have ample reason to. There is nothing about having exams next week that prevents you going to the doctor now, in fact if you want to do those exams you are much more likely to be able to do so if you get help now. Next week you will be in even worse shape (you are already getting amnesia!) so I think it is likely you will find another excuse not to go.

  6. #286
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    Hey, Ribbons -- Just checking in to see how you're doing today. Remember that you deserve to be healthy. You deserve to be happy. For you to be healthy and happy, you have to fuel your body with food. You can do it!

  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ribbons View Post
    I think I've binged enough. I want to do this without putting on weight, so it's probably better that I just increase my cals slowly.
    Human dietary needs aver extremely variable. Of course it is better that your increase your food, but I am sure the reason you got into this state is because you have not binged enough. Like I said above, binging is natural and healthy.
    Haha it was random; I couldn't think of a name and I saw a ribbon on my desk (I don't even wear ribbons).
    Good choice of name, anyway!
    Whatever it is, if I ate it it would feel more like I'm relieving an addiction to it than actually enjoying it. Sorta like smoking a cigarette for someone who's addicted to them.
    What makes smoking additive is that there are chemicals in tobacco that cause a similar effect in the brain to things like eating, that feel very good indeed. The difference between smoking and eating is that you need to eat to live. You do not need to smoke to live, it just latches onto the same sort of thing. It is good to crave food and is not an addiction, it is a sign of things working normally.

    I am not encouraging you to smoke or anything, but for you it would be totally fine if you did, if it encouraged you to eat. It takes decades for smoking to do you any real harm, whereas if you carry on in your present anorexic state you most likely die before next year. People can find it makes them feel calmer, which can vastly outweigh the long term health risks when people have very serious immediate problems. Tobacco is actually one of the least problematic addictions, having less effects on your mental health that almost anything else, including caffeine. Least problematic withdrawal symptoms too, only really making people irritable.
    Last edited by billp; 06-08-2012 at 04:59 AM.

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoebird View Post
    weight loss isn't relevant at this point.

    what is relevant is your mental health, and the physical health along with it since your mental state is leading you to harm your physical health, and therefore you need to get help for your mental health.
    I know but if I put on weight then that's a big discouragement from eating more.
    Quote Originally Posted by billp View Post
    Food doesn't just turn to fat. I have been eating unlimited meat, fat and green veg for nine months and I have used every loop on my belt, from the outermost to now the innermost. Of course if I actually starved myself like you have been doing then that would bias me to putting on fat, because that is a famine response. This is one of the many reasons why it is so bad to starve yourself.
    I know but it feels like it's turning into fat because food makes your stomach look bigger and you feel heavier.
    In your current anorexic state, if you moved out of home you would probably be dead in two months. Something to think about after you are not anorexic any more.
    Haha like a week ago I was imagining moving into my own house and not keeping any food in it and that seemed like the ideal situation to be in because no one could make me eat and I wouldn't be able to binge. It didn't even occur to me then that I could die from that.
    I think it is funny how you value your own life less than having to repeat yr 12
    No, I just don't think I need immediate help. If I was dying I'd happily drop out of school.
    It is better than nothing but you need real medical attention right away. Like someone said a few pages back, would you be doing this if you had cancer? What you have has a similar death rate to cancer and in your current untreated state will probably kill you before New Year.
    It's not the same. I can think clearly enough to know whether I'm dying or not (and I'm definitely not!) And cancer can't get better on its own or just by changing your diet.
    Although it many not seem like it, this is why you need help so urgently. You are describing a symptom of mental illness. People who are not mentally ill agree with things based on whether it is right or wrong, not fluttering between based on a funny interaction of mood and food. That is mental degeneration in progress, caused by acute starvation.
    Does "mental degeneration" mean that I'm losing my ability to think rationally? Is that why I keep changing my mind?
    Go weigh yourself then, and tell us. No one here knows you. At the moment people here are assuming the worst because they don't have any hard data.
    I can't weigh myself now because I feel very fat and I've probably put on weight so I'll do it in a couple of days. But I can assure you that I'm still fat.
    Counting calories is very dangerous, as it interrupts the body's normal hungry-feeding cycle and prompts a temporary autistic state obsessed with numbers.
    That's why I'm not (purposely) doing it anymore
    That's because I only just invented it! I have been trying to understand Anorexia for a while, as I think what is commonly believed about it (regarding wanting to lose weight) is utterly contradicted by the historical evidence. I started thinking about something I have been calling Anorexia Realis months ago. I think because everyone is starting from the wrong principles about treating Anorexia (body image, weight loss etc.) it makes the treatment much less effective. Knowing what is really going on and not just what the victim has latched onto should make it more treatable. Of course the only real treatment is to eat lots and lots for a sustained period until the obsessive thoughts go and sanity returns - which it would totally do if you ate and ate.
    Haha well done for inventing it
    You could write a book or something.
    To get out of this you will need to binge for about two continuous weeks.
    That seem a bit excessive... Why two weeks?
    Only toxic if you eat it all the time.
    I eat under 10g of fructose a day because apparently that's the "safe" limit.
    After the way you have treated yourself for the last three weeks, you will definitely need a lot of sugar in your diet for a while. Once you are no longer anorexic you can scale back on it. You will find that most of the people here are eating sugar after extreme exercise or physical trauma (i.e. like you).
    How could sugar possibly be good for me? I'd just get addicted to it again.
    I think your anorexic recovery is going to involve lots of carbs
    Why??

    Quote Originally Posted by billp View Post
    You probably do have amnesia. Alcoholics get that too - the alcohol interferes with their metabolism so severely that their brain function is gradually more and more clouded. Not being able to remember stuff is new for you, isn't it? And you still hope to do your mid-year exams! No chance. Do you know what that amnesia is? It is death, creeping silently up on you. You must start eating immediately. You must seek immediate medical help.
    I can't tell if you're serious or you're just trying to scare me.
    I don't actually believe you about it not being possible to postpone exams. I don't believe you have actually asked anyone if that was possible in cases of medical emergency.
    They said it at the start of the year to everyone. You can't postpone exams because it gives you an unfair advantage. You could easily find the exams online.
    I don't believe you If you were willing to go you would have gone already. You have ample reason to. There is nothing about having exams next week that prevents you going to the doctor now, in fact if you want to do those exams you are much more likely to be able to do so if you get help now. Next week you will be in even worse shape (you are already getting amnesia!) so I think it is likely you will find another excuse not to go.
    I don't want to go but I will if I need to. And there's not much anyone could do for me in less than a week so I may as well go after exams.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackieKessler View Post
    Hey, Ribbons -- Just checking in to see how you're doing today. Remember that you deserve to be healthy. You deserve to be happy. For you to be healthy and happy, you have to fuel your body with food. You can do it!
    Thank you
    I'm ok today . I had like 500-700 cals today and I'm having conflicting thoughts about whether that's bad because it's too much or because it's not enough. But I skipped dinner anyway because I wasn't sure.

  9. #289
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    I am not encouraging you to smoke or anything, but for you it would be totally fine if you did, if it encouraged you to eat. It takes decades for smoking to do you any real harm, whereas if you carry on in your present anorexic state you most likely die before next year. People can find it makes them feel calmer, which can vastly outweigh the long term health risks when people have very serious immediate problems. Tobacco is actually one of the least problematic addictions, having less effects on your mental health that almost anything else, including caffeine. Least problematic withdrawal symptoms too, only really making people irritable.
    Hahaha you say you're not encouraging me to smoke and then you tell me why it would be ok for me. Last year I smoked a bit (only a couple of times) and I actually felt the effects of nicotine addiction very quickly but it went away after a couple of days of not smoking.

  10. #290
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    Yeah, smoking is really addictive. I have smoked on and off. Two cigarettes are enough to make me crave it and lead to a five packet addiction - after which I stop myself by sheer will-power - I just expect it to hurt for a few days, then I am over it.

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