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    Xeronimo's Avatar
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    If primal is the best way to fitness then how do you explain ...

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    If primal is the best way to fitness then how do you explain the feats (and fitness) of vegetarians like Rich Roll (who's actually a vegan)? Here's his site: Rich Roll (I'm not trying to advertise, I'm just trying to illustrate what I mean).

    I'm following a mostly primal lifestyle now but I'm still a bit concerned about the tons of meat you eat in the process ... both from a health and an ecological perspective.

    I mean, it's obvious that going primal works! But it seems like going vegetarian/vegan can work too!?

    Any opinions?
    Last edited by Xeronimo; 05-25-2012 at 05:51 AM.

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    Some people hit the genetic lottery! It's possible his genes express themselves best on his diet, or that he would be even more athletic on a primal diet. No way to tell, but to convince him to try Primal, but in my experience that would be a tough sell for most vegans.
    SW on 10/1/11: 380lbs.
    CW 12/13/12: 315lbs. (Was under 300#, added some muscle :-) )
    GW: 10% B.F. 250lbs. - 275lbs. (6' 4" tall)

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    If primal is the best way to fitness
    You have mistaken best for only.

    There are examples of people in great shape and competing in various sports at high levels on all diets, doesn't mean that everyone should follow suit. Do what works for you.

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    I think eliminating processed foods is the most important thing. Seed oils, flours, and sugars. I think you can be healthy on a mostly plant-based diet... but why do that when there is so much delicious meat!

    Also, it's much easier to get adequate protein without overdoing carbs with meat in your diet. I think if Rich Roll did not exercise as much as he does and scaled back his food intake proportionately, he would lose a lot of muscle mass due to inadequate protein intake. Also, eventually B12 defeciency is going to catch up with him unless he starts supplementing.
    Last edited by yodiewan; 05-25-2012 at 07:40 AM.

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    Personally, vegetarian/vegan did not work for me. I had (figuratively) taken up the meat is murder mantra in my early 20's. I lost some weight that I didn't really need to lose at the time, and my health had deteriorated considerably. To be fair I was not doing it 'right' with my limited food choices due to being a bit of a picky eater. However, most vegetarians/vegans I have known don't do it 'right' either, and do not take into account their nutritional needs as a human. My vegetarian era lasted a bit less than a year before I gave in and killed off a sack of White Castle cheeseburgers, and even that pseudo-food made me feel better than I had in months. If meat is murder, it is tasty, tasty murder, and I function better with it as part of my diet. I offer thanks and praise to those creatures who have given their life so I may live.

    I don't eat 'tons' of meat. In fact my overall intake of meat is reasonably close to most ~200 lb males I know who eat a standard American diet. Will I polish off a 24oz porterhouse on occasion? Of course, but it is an indulgence, and usually on a day I do that I've been out hiking or being otherwise active all day, and didn't bother stopping for lunch. Since I fast 18 hours most days, that steak, a salad, and a double portion of veggies represents my entire nutritional intake for the day, whereas my SAD counterpart had a bagel with ham, eggs and cheese for breakfast, a chicken parm hero for lunch, and that same porterhouse with french fries and a beer for dinner...

    There are ample studies showing how unhealthy a standard diet that includes indiscriminate meat consumption is. I have yet to see one that shows that eating quality meats, even in large quantities, in the absence of excessive calories from grains/sugars/etc. When I see a study that says eating 8oz to 16oz a day of grass fed beef and other pastured and non-industrial meats while removing legumes, grains, sugar, vegetable oils, and other processed foods from your diet causes anything worse than I have already experienced eating vegetarian or SAD, I will read it with great interest.

    As far as the ecological/sustainability issue, please see Can The Primal Blueprint Diet Feed the World? | Mark's Daily Apple which goes into far more depth on that issue than I can in the space here.

    Finally, the same advice I give everyone is if it works for you, do it. So far 3 people in my life have gone primal in the past 5 months after seeing my results. Between them they have lost ~80lbs. One female had her hormonal bloodwork come back normal for the first time in 10 years. One who had high blood pressure has found it normalized after about a month. The other who suffers from gout as well as severe joint pain has been able to reintroduce foods that used to trigger gout episodes, and has been able to start exercising again. But just because it works for all of us doesn't mean its the only option.
    Last edited by Devain; 05-27-2012 at 05:13 AM.
    “I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.” ―Bruce Lee


    2012: 01/17 238~34% | 03/17 215~28%| 5/17 196~24% | 8/22 188 ~20% (then I got lazy)
    2013: 1/27 190~20%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeronimo View Post
    I'm following a mostly primal lifestyle now but I'm still a bit concerned about the tons of meat you eat in the process ... both from a health and an ecological perspective.
    Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence.

    There's certainly no valid reason to believe that meat is a dietary health danger. Epidemiological studies that conflate Spam with Grass-fed ribeye (and don't take other lifestyle factors into account) are worse than worthless. Look up Stefansson and the Inuit for an extreme example of super healthy people living on basically 100% meat.

    The extreme actions necessary to perennially grow annual seeds like wheat are ecologically disastrous. The vegan view that you just lay down seeds and give them water and sunshine is woefully naíve. The topsoil gets destroyed. For one thing, these plants grow, all by their lonesome, row after row, in land that once housed entire ecosystems. There's no food on your plate that got there independent of the death of sentient beings.

    Land that we farm for your precious, guilt-free vegetables is land that once housed ecosystems, without human assistance of any sort. This is now land which must be fortified with nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium for even the wheat or corn to continue to grow. This means dead animals, whether recent (blood and bone meal) or ancient (petroleum-based fertilizers. Google "Haber-Bosch Process" if you want to know how much destruction your grains cause).

    On the other hand, grazing beef cattle on rotating pastures, via Joel Salatin's methodologies, for (an awesome) example, builds topsoils and restores the land to its pre-pillaged state over time. The meat I eat feeds me AND the earth. Hope we can clear up the misguided beliefs that are causing your concerns. Stick around. You'll get it.

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    I always disliked the vegans/vegetarians with the 'meat is murder' mantra, or other similar, I don't want to eat meat because the cute animals that die...or they watch footage of the slaughterhouse and are traumatized.

    I used to ask them..."How do you eat your vegetable? Raw? OMG, YOU'RE EATING THAT PLANT ALIVE!"

    It's hard to talk to some people and get them to realize that every living thing is sustained on other living things. There's no way to avoid killing some other creature/plant without starving yourself to death.

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    I really don't understand the line about "but, I love ALL animals!"

    That cow, or chicken doesn't give a rats ASS about YOU. Why do YOU love it so much? I adore my cats, but that's because I have a loving relationship with them. I grew up with dogs, and again, I loved them and they loved me. Mutual love.

    Farm animals? Really? Chickens are exceptionally stupid creatures. Pigs are actually quite smart, smarter than dogs. It's too bad they're tasty!

    I've seen/read about vegans who are hard core lifters/trainers, but they have to supplement the snot out of their vegan/vegetarian lifestyle. They are missing out on many nutrients because they do not eat meat or animal fat.

    I'm also convinced the reason so many vegans/vegetarians are such militants, is because they're lacking in B vitamins. Lack of B vitamins makes one angry and hostile. Morrissey, anyone? LOL (I kid - only slightly; I love the man's music, but he's a complete dick).

    Meat is not murder; murder is the death of a human by another human. There's another bat shit line from the mouth of Morrissey and PETA. Remember years ago when PETA compared the mass slaughter of chickens for KFC to the Holocaust? THEY ARE NUTTERS. Plain and simple.
    A Post-Primal PrimalPat

    Do not allow yourself to become wrapped up in a food 'lifestyle'. That is ego, and you are not that.

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    THIS! Thanks, Rich

    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence.

    There's certainly no valid reason to believe that meat is a dietary health danger. Epidemiological studies that conflate Spam with Grass-fed ribeye (and don't take other lifestyle factors into account) are worse than worthless. Look up Stefansson and the Inuit for an extreme example of super healthy people living on basically 100% meat.

    The extreme actions necessary to perennially grow annual seeds like wheat are ecologically disastrous. The vegan view that you just lay down seeds and give them water and sunshine is woefully naíve. The topsoil gets destroyed. For one thing, these plants grow, all by their lonesome, row after row, in land that once housed entire ecosystems. There's no food on your plate that got there independent of the death of sentient beings.

    Land that we farm for your precious, guilt-free vegetables is land that once housed ecosystems, without human assistance of any sort. This is now land which must be fortified with nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium for even the wheat or corn to continue to grow. This means dead animals, whether recent (blood and bone meal) or ancient (petroleum-based fertilizers. Google "Haber-Bosch Process" if you want to know how much destruction your grains cause).

    On the other hand, grazing beef cattle on rotating pastures, via Joel Salatin's methodologies, for (an awesome) example, builds topsoils and restores the land to its pre-pillaged state over time. The meat I eat feeds me AND the earth. Hope we can clear up the misguided beliefs that are causing your concerns. Stick around. You'll get it.
    A Post-Primal PrimalPat

    Do not allow yourself to become wrapped up in a food 'lifestyle'. That is ego, and you are not that.

  10. #10
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    Like this...


    Ohhh... you said RicH Roll, not RicK Roll... My bad.

    Oh.... and "tons of meat"
    You can totally be primal as a pescatarian... Mark's own wife does this.
    There are choices.
    Make your own.
    Last edited by cori93437; 05-25-2012 at 03:01 PM.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


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