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Thread: Paleobird's Next Big Adventure page 126

  1. #1251
    Betorq's Avatar
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    Robin, have you read or seen this (not so)recent blog by Dr Kurt Harris?

    Archevore - Archevore Blog - Jimmy Moore inquires about "safe*starches"
    Jimmy Moore inquires about "safe starches" Thursday, September 29, 2011 at 11:41AM

    This morning I got an email from Jimmy Moore inquiring what I thought about Paul Jaminet’s ideas about safe starches as espoused on his blog and in his book The Pefect Health Diet. I am not sure if Jimmy has noted the updates I’ve made in the Archevore diet, or if he has seen where I have come down on the issue of the CIH ( the carbohydrate-insulin hypothesis of obesity), as he would have to be scouring the nooks and crannies of blog comments all over the nutrition blogosphere ; )
    I’ve not had time to write the magnum opus blog posts that the repuditation of the CIH really requires (and not much can be added to what Stephan has already written), so I thought this was a good opportunity to get the message outside of my own echo chamber by responding in detail to Jimmy’s inquiry. My response to him is pretty long, and I doubt if he will quote much of it, so I’ve reproduced the email response, with his inquiry broken into bits in italics and my responses afterward in roman.
    Kurt, I've been getting a lot of questions this year from my "Livin' La Vida Low-Carb" blog readers about the concepts in Paul Jaminet's book "Perfect Health Diet." He advocates for eating white potatoes and white rice as part of a low-carb eating plan.
    I also have come to see most starchy plant organs as perfectly legitimate fuel sources.

    Low carb plans have helped people lose fat by reducing food reward from white flour and excess sugar and maybe linoleic acid. This is by accident as it happens that most of the "carbs" in our diet are coming in the form of manufactured and processed items that are simply not real food. Low carb does not work for most people via effects on blood sugar or insulin "locking away" fat. Insulin is necessary to store fat, but is not the main hormone regulating fat storage. That would be leptin.

    My reading of the anthropology and ethnology literature, as well as my current understanding of biochemistry and metabolism, lead me to see the human metabolism as a multi-fuel stove, equally capable of burning either glucose or fatty acids at the cellular level depending on the organ, the task and the diet, and equally capable of depending on either animal fats or starches from plants as our dietary fuel source, depending on the biome (biological environment) we find ourselves born in or that we migrate to.

    We are a highly adaptable species. It is not plausible that carbohydrates as a class of macronutrient are toxic.
    Diabetics need to avoid high carbohydrate intake the same way those with gall bladder disease need to avoid fat, but carbohydrates do not cause obesity or diabetes and fat consumption does not cause gall bladder disease (in fact low fat diets may contribute to gallstone formation via stasis)

    Here's a one-page explanation and illustration of Jaminet's program:The Diet | Perfect Health Diet

    Several places in the book and on Jaminet's blog (Perfect Health Diet - A diet for healing chronic disease, restoring youthful vitality, and achieving long life) he specifically warns against the danger of a very low-carb diet (defined as less than about 300-400 calories per day (~100 grams) from so-called "safe starches"--taro, plantains, yams, white potatoes, sweet potatoes, white rice and berries) because less than this leads to the risks, including: 1) "insufficient production of mucus in the digestive tract" leading to dysbiosis
    I have not looked into that claim enough to comment in detail, but it seems plausible.
    2) vitamin deficiencies (he particularly mentions Vitamin C and glutathione Yes I would agree with that. Whites and sweets are loaded with ascorbic acid. on pages 253-254)In particular he emphasizes these calories need to come from "safe starches and berrries" and "don't count vegetables as as a carb source (because) they are a fiber (and therefore a fat) source" (page 45).

    My list is white potatoes, sweet potatoes, white rice and bananas. If more exotic fare like plantains and taro is available to you, that is fine, too. Except for white rice, these are all whole food starch sources with good mineral and micronutrient content that have been eaten in good health for thousands of years in many environments by genetically diverse populations. Many of these plants have spread far from their biomes of origin and serve as staples for populations who have adopted them with success over just the past few thousand years.

    These starchy plant organs or vegetables are like night and day compared to most cereal grains, particularly wheat. One can eat more than half of calories from these safe starches without the risk of disease from phytates and mineral deficiencies one would have from relying on grains.

    White rice is kind of a special case. It lacks the nutrients of root vegetables and starchy fruits like plantain and banana, but is good in reasonable quantities as it is a very benign grain that is easy to digest and gluten free.
    I think consumption of quality animal products is the sine qua non of a healthy diet.

    Once you have that, then eating starchy plants is more important for nutrition than eating colorful leafy greens - the veggies that are high fiber and low starch. (Some green leafy vegetables are good sources of folate and along with some fruits are sources of flavonoids that may benefit you via hormesis.)

    I view most non-starchy fruit with indifference. In reasonable quantities it is fine but it won't save your life either. I like citrus now and then myself, especially grapefruit. But better to rely on starchy vegetables for carbohydrate intake than fruit.
    Primitive populations practicing horticulture or hunting and gathering do not eat a lot of big green salads with lots of variety, but they do eat healthy starchy plant organs with monotony on top of their foraged animal foods.

    Eating a very low carb (VLC) diet for a period of time can be a good fat loss maneuver, acting via the effects of ketosis on
    appetite suppression. I also like to see people limit themselves to two or three meals a day with absolutely no snacking, and it may give benefits via hormesis for longer periods of fasting (24 hours or more) once in a while.

    But a long term VLC ketogenic diet is not a good idea. It does not mimic the ancestral diet in general, even if some populations have tolerated it when they had to. There is no need for most people to do it to lose fat, as food reward effects are more powerful. I would advocate long term ketosis in those with neurodegenerative brains diseases like Alzheimer dementia and Parkinson disease, and a 10 day water fast followed by long term ketogenic diet is worth trying if you have cancer.

    But I would not recommend VLC ketosis as a long term way of life the way I would not recommend running a half marathon every day, or lifting weights to failure on a daily basis, or taking chemotherapy drugs when you don't have cancer. Ketosis probably stresses the body and works via hormesis. But the clean up and repair response cannot happen if there is no rest from it.


    A recent post he wrote for cancer patients revealed his recommendion of obtaining 400 to 600 glucose calories a day, mainly from these safe starches. He says it is important to avoid a glucose deficiency, since glycosylated proteins are the means of intercellular coordination, and defects in glycosylation are characteristic of the cancer phenotype.

    My arguments are based more on ethnography and anthropology than some of Paul's theorizing, but I arrive at pretty much the same place that he does. I personally eat around 30% carbohydrate now and have not gained an ounce from when I ate 10-15% (and I have eaten as high as 40% for over a year also with zero fat gain) If anything I think even wider ranges of carbohydrate intake are healthy.

    One can probably eat well over 50% of calories from starchy plant organs as long as the animal foods you eat are of high quality and micronutrient content.

    Grass fed ruminants, pastured butter and eggs and wild caught cold water fish are the kernel of a healthy diet, but the fuel source can be larger than the kernel on a caloric basis if the kernel is high quality and consistent.

    He notes, "You don’t want to aggravate this with a self-induced glucose deficiency." I'd like to write a blog post about this topic of "safe starches" to help my readers understand fact from fiction and will quote from your response. THANK YOU! If you cannot assist me, then please let me know so I ask someone else to contribute.

    I've given you plenty to quote from, Jimmy. Go for it!
    "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
    "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
    "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown


  2. #1252
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    Robin :-)

    Started a thread on detox, would love your comments
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  3. #1253
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    Betorq, that is an interesting excerpt from Dr. Harris.

    Except for the overall message which seems to say long term low carb is unhealthy, what he says is probably true for many people. But for Jimmy, I think he's not healed enough from so many years of metabolic syndrome. I'm not sure if I am, either. It's only been 3 years since my last long distance hike.

    I think my long distance hiking pushed me over the edge into metabolic syndrome when before I was just an ordinary person who got told to watch those triglycerides and cholesterol numbers. I had so many more symptoms of a metabolism on the outs after hiking the PCT.

    Bringing back the potatoes at first felt fine, but eventually made me sleepy after meals and made me want more and more of them. It took away the control I had over my insatiable hunger. Even though I didn't gain any weight, I didn't see any real positives from doing it.

    Perhaps as a person is on the mend from metabolic syndrome they should revisit ketosis from time-to-time to see if it clears up any symptoms. Spend a couple of months low carb, then revisit the starches and see what happens. Do this until you are sure you are truly healed. I've never met anyone who can say for sure if you can heal from metabolic syndrome to the point where you no longer return to your previous symptoms upon return to higher carbs, even if they are clean and healthy carbs. It seems like an area for trial and error to me.
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  4. #1254
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    Had dental work today. Feel like death on a triscuit. More later. Nap time.

  5. #1255
    Betorq's Avatar
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    Sorry to hear that. Hope you gets some good rest & wake up Saturday revived ie your usual chipper self.
    "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
    "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
    "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown


  6. #1256
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    Quote Originally Posted by quelsen View Post
    Robin :-)Started a thread on detox, would love your comments
    I just posted one. Interesting topic.

    About Kurt Harris, I stopped listening about the time he stopped being "agnostic" about optimal carb levels and went way heavy into the starches along with being snotty in making fun of anyone who opted for VLC. It's one thing to say, "I'm a lean young guy doing a lot of heavy labor so I need some more carbs to fill in my stomach", and saying, "Anyone who still thinks VLC works is an idiot."

    I don't think the Carbohydrate Insulin Hypothesis needs "repudiating" as KH puts it. Rather I think it needs refining. The roles of other hormones need to be taken into account.

    But, at the end of the day, low carb dieting works for a lot of people. There is no arguing with that. KH is trying to say that is it just kind of accidental that "going low carb" also takes out the wheat and the nasty oils so it is not really the low carb at all that is causing the weight loss. If that were the case, with a completely clean Primal diet, I should be able to eat potatoes without gaining weight but I can't. Choco can but I can't. As SB says, all starch like that does for me is make me sleepy and make me want more starch.

  7. #1257
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    Adventures in Dentistry.

    Went in today to get temporary crown replaced with the permanent one. (cracked a tooth a couple of weeks back on an olive pit.)
    The dentist shoots me up with novocaine and waits for it to kick in. Then goes to break the temp off with a grinding implement of some sort. The nerve involved was not as asleep as it was supposed to be and I just about came off of the chair in pain.

    So, more shots of novocaine, and waiting for it to kick in. Then the temp was removed and he went to fit the new porcelain crown. He had me bite down to check the fit between the teeth and the new crown cracked and split in two. It had not been properly shaped to fit with the tooth below it. Shit.

    There was nothing to be done but to take the crown off put a new temp on and send off to the lab to get a new permanent one done right. So, I got absolutely nothing accomplished today while enduring a lot of pain. And I get to go back and do it all again next week. Yay.

  8. #1258
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    that is no fun at all. i'm sorry that it happens. work on the teeth is never fun.

  9. #1259
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoebird View Post
    that is no fun at all. i'm sorry that it happens. work on the teeth is never fun.
    Thanks Zoe. I had a nap in the hammock outside today and that helped. I'm not usually a wimp when it comes to pain but that drill really sent a jolt through me that felt like it just jangled my whole head.

  10. #1260
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    Again, sorry to hear of your recent travails in dentistry. My mom's brother is a (retired) dentist & my own brother & mother & father too, have had lots of work done. Genetically or just sheer luck, I've got strong, large healthy teeth. I'm the only one in my family actually that doesn't have a history of dental stuff over the years. And I count myself blessed/lucky for that! Teeth and bee stings & your dad down for the count some too, what a week or 2 you've had!

    And for pasting the Kurt Harris blog post & my question here, I was not advocated or backing up his claims. I was just curious as to what your take is/would be, since not only are you engaged (successfully) in LC/VLC now for some time, to treat your seizures & lower your meds(how's that goin'?), & since you are really up on the science out there, & really in touch w/ the science in your body, I just wanted to hear your take on things. Like some others, you're very opinionated, but it's an informed opinion imo...

    I've been forcing myself to stay in the rack & sleep in some every morning, & also consciously choosing to take 20-60 minute afternoon naps. It's been helping since I tend to undersleep.
    "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
    "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
    "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown


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