Marks Reference-Dr. Castelli(Framingham Study) doesn't eat any fatty foods! page

[TomC]

I turned 40 this year, and realized the clock is ticking, if I don't want to end up like my father with a septuple bypass at age 53. I found MDA, and have I've been following 80-90% of PBP for the last 2 months. The Excercies, the whole foods in the form of fruits, vegtables and nuts, the elimination of processed foods, Free range eggs, have all been part of my daily regimen. And this has all worked out well for me so far. I'm down 25 lbs, and feel better than I have since I can remember, and have tons of energy.

The part I have had trouble with the consuming of saturated fats. I have avoided bacon, and fatty meats, butter, Coconut Oil, and limit red meat and pork. This is due in part to being brainwashed perhaps about the dangers of Saturated fats, and partly seeing my father in the hospital after his heart attack. I don't want that for me, and I don't want to gamble with my life on the hopes that Mark has done his research.

So this morning, I thought id like to do more research on my own, into the Saturated fat argument, since I want to make the jump completely. I read back through the PBP books to find the references To the argument that Mark makes about saturated. I found he references the Framingham study and Dr. William Castelli who was the head of it for 30 years. I found a few articles, but many dated whcih the Dr, stating that we should limit the intake of fats. But these are dated, and perhaps the research has changed.
Then I found an interview with the Dr. William Castelli just last year, and it goes through all his theories, his research, beliefs, and his diet. I am completely deflated, as I wanted to Follow the PBp 100% and Wanted believe everything in mark has put in the PBP was good. Here is the link and some quotes from this interview by Kirk Hamilto with the Dr. Castelli. Link to Interview

"KIRK HAMILTON: But what would the diet be if you didn't have drugs and you could get everybody to do exactly what you wanted diet-wise in the United States? How would you reverse the heart disease?
DR. WILLIAM CASTELLI: Well you'd have them on a pure vegetarian diet and not getting fat on the vegetarian diet"
"DR. WILLIAM CASTELLI:Now if I would have put everyone on a vegetarian diet and drive their numbers down by diet, we would get rid of all the atherosclerosis in America. "
"KIRK HAMILTON: And tell me about the Castelli heart prevention diet that you're on. What do you do?
DR. WILLIAM CASTELLI: Well I have my oatmeal with soy milk in the morning and then I usually have, if I have lunch, it's a salad, with it could be herring snacks with it. I eat a lot of sardines. "
"And then at dinner my wife will make fish or chicken and we rarely have beef or pork or lamb or any of those."

"DR. WILLIAM CASTELLI:I learned you could shrink the deposits in people's arteries when I was a medical student in Belgium working for a pathologist in the '50s. When he did an autopsy he would call us over and say "Look at this coming back to Belgium at autopsy all these fat deposits in their arteries." We said, "Well wait a minute if it's coming back where did it go?" He said, "I don't know where it went. Disappeared by 1942." Well what happened in Belgium in the early '40s, an army came and well right behind the army came the German trucks. They backed them up to all the farms in Belgium, northern France, Holland, Poland, all the countries the Germans invaded, the trucks showed up. All the meat and livestock went back to Germany and by 1942 in Belgium at autopsy all the fat deposits in the arteries had disappeared."

Dr. Castelli does Talk about how Refined Carbohydrates are a huge factor in raising Triglycerides, which plays a role in the Cardiovascular Disease. I think Marks on the money there, But I dont think that means we can or should start eating saturated fat. What evidence have you found that says we can and should?

"DR. WILLIAM CASTELLItriglycerides) are more or less related to the refined carbohydrate in your diet, the white flour, the sugar, the candies, the cookies, the cakes, the ice creams. If you can get them to get away from a lot of that refined carbohydrate stuff you can lower those triglycerides"

Tom C.

[Finnegans Wake]

Just because Castelli's driving a car doesn't mean he understands how the car works. By which I mean, he's entitled to his interpretation of the data, but that interpretation appears to be incorrect. He appears to have thrown his lot in with the Campbell, Esselstyn, Ornish axis of evil.

You may wish to read Dr. Mary Enig's Know Your Fats, Dr. Catherine Shanahan's Deep Nutrition, Drs. Paul and Shou-Ching Jaminet's The Perfect Health Diet, Gary Taubes's Good Calories, Bad Calories, or scan the websites of Dr. Kurt Harris, Chris Kressler, the WAPF site, the Cholesterol Skeptics site, Denise Minger's Raw Food SOS site, Dr. Zoe Harcombe's site, etc., for more resources and information.

The fact is, there's a lot of data, and a lot of contradictory interpretations of the data, so confirmation bias is possible on either side of the argument. IMHO, the Lipid Hypothesis sceptics are making a better case. One thing to consider in epidemiological studies in general is the preponderance of statistical confounds. It appears a cut and dried matter to correlate diseases of civilization to meat (and saturated fat) consumption, until you consider the number of other factors that go hand in hand with meat consumption in Western countries: increased sugar consumption, increased total carbohydrate consumption, increased consumption of industrial ("vegetable") oils, sedentary lifestyle, etc.

Also, go to AJCN site and start digging around there. Again, some contradictions, but quite a few studies showing that sat fat isn't the culprit, as here and here and here.

[TomC]

Finnegans, you have a plethora of links which i will definitely check out. I'm new to this and am struggling to grasp all the concepts, and I don't know anything about these researchers you mention who are the axis of evil, nor do I know why they are the axis of evil. What is your take on Dr. Castellis recollections about Belgium during world war 2 and when he was a med student in the 50's His assertion, that when Meat became sparse in belgium, so did arteriosclerosis, and when Meat came back, so did arteriosclerosis. I would expect that during the 40's and 50's in belgium, these cows were of he highest quality grass fed type, and not mass produced, so I dont think thats a factor. And I would not think that their diet in the 30's was that of our western traditional diet, yet they had arteriosclerosis as evident in the autopsies, until the meat went away. This is not a Study per-say, but it seams to strongly suggest that remove the meat and you remove the disease.

Also, you seem educated in the matter and well read on the subject. what are your thoughts on limiting the saturated fat component as I've done thus far. Could I still be successful in keeping my heart healthy, or does one need these saturated fats? I realize that the argument is seems to be that you can eat them and that they are now safe, when coupled with other good whole foods and as long as they are grass fed, that they are a good source of energy. But does that mean you have to in order to keep your hear healthy and your weight down? What if you don't? Will this upset some balance somewhere. It seems that if you could limit the cholesterol, then you wont have to get rid of or oxidize as much.

Thanks again, and I will check out all your links over the weekend, and look at the researchers in the meantime.

Tom

[Radialhead]

What is your take on Dr. Castellis recollections about Belgium during world war 2 and when he was a med student in the 50's His assertion, that when Meat became sparse in belgium, so did arteriosclerosis, and when Meat came back, so did arteriosclerosis.

A classic case of assuming correlation equals causation. All food was rationed during the war, & one of the first to go was sugar, which is a far more likely culprit. Castellis just picks meats because that suits his agenda.

[teach2183]

Check out Wheat Belly by Dr William Davis, and you can follow the tons of references in his book. He also has a website, track your plaque which is all about heart disease. He's a cardiologist in Milwaukee.

[longing2bfit]

A classic case of assuming correlation equals causation. All food was rationed during the war, & one of the first to go was sugar, which is a far more likely culprit. Castellis just picks meats because that suits his agenda.

I was just going to say this! Not only did the meat go but almost all food including sugar, processed foods, manufactured foods etc,. And saturated fats are not found in only meat (did you notice that doc was getting heart healthy fast from canned fish?) But in avocado's coconuts, olives etc. Think of your veins and arteries like a soft flexible form of tubing, to keep in soft and flexible you need lubricant and healthy natural saturated fats are that lubricant! There are many heart doctors and scientists that have came 'out' in the last few years saying that they have been wrong!!! Google and you will be surprised. The only people who really buy into this fat is evil anymore is people who are afraid to look outside the old information. Don't be skeered of the fat But you also don't have to gorge on it either!!

[Finnegans Wake]

A classic case of assuming correlation equals causation. All food was rationed during the war, & one of the first to go was sugar, which is a far more likely culprit. Castellis just picks meats because that suits his agenda.

This.

Do you know when cardio-vascular disease first started inching upward? Around the turn of the 20th century, right around the time sugary soft drinks were introduced and hydrogenated cooking fats (Crisco) were introduced. You can timeline all the upswings in CVD, diabetes, and cancers as having strong correlations to subsequent introductions of processed foods (TV dinners), lifestyle changes (more transport by car, more TV time, computer time, video gaming, less activity), high fructose corn syrup, the McGovern Report pushing low-fat and high-grain. Consider this: the BIG jump in CVD, diabetes, and cancer (incidence, not mortality) has come roughly over the last 30 years. When did HFCS start finding its way into drinks, ketchup, spaghetti sauce? When did the McGovern Report recommendation to eat more grains (read: stuff yourself with carbs, but avoid evil meat) get introduced? 1976-77. Eerie.

There are all kinds of other factors, like the Farm Bill subsidization of soy and corn, and how that impacts meat production (cheap, unhealthy feed makes the CAFO meat less healthful than the grass-fed beef and pastured livestock and dairy of 100 years ago).

The three most unhealthful things in the SAD is sugar, excess carbohydrate, and industrial "vegetable" oils. Removing those automatically removes most processed foods. Quality meats do indeed promote optimal health, per Shanahan and the Jaminets.

[Chaohinon]

If you eat a decent variety of whole foods, a range of fatty and lean meats, eggs, vegetable & animal fats, you'll naturally end up with a relatively even split of polyunsaturated, monounsaturated, and saturated fats. Primal is only high in saturated fat when compared to a SAD or vegetarian diet that's skewed heavily in favor of unsaturates.

[Knifegill]

Never trust anyone who eats soy.

[TomC]

Never trust anyone who eats soy.

Ok. I read many of Marks Posts on here, where he will easily discount some research for one reason or another, (skewed, Flawed, need more evidence). But should we not look at Marks own research in this very same light, especially when one of his few key pieces of evidence cited in his books and Blog, are clearly not on the same page as mark, and not entirely supporting what Mark is advocating.

Or do we only trust a person and their research, (such as with trusting what Dr Castelli says), when it is convenient to do so, but if they go against us or have changed their opinion based upon research then they must be an idiot, or have joined the dark side or axis of evil, or have been bought out. Mark and his Followers trusted that Castelli's research was sound and factual, Enough so that its quoted in Marks book, when it backed up Marks Points, But now that it seems that the Dr. is not backing up marks points oh and because he eats soy, hes not trustworthy? He's the same trustworthy person, who has been researching this very subject for at least 45 years. I tend to think that mark was right in taking a serious look at his research in the first place. 45 years is not to be dismissed so easily.

I appreciate the responses here, and will continue to search out the truth. I see that many folks are doing that here, but I see many that are not. I'm choosing to do research first and form an opinion based on the research, not the opposite, Form an opinion, and find research to support my opinion.
Read the evidence people and make your own judgments.

Tom