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  1. #481
    wiltondeportes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    The Rand quote that was provided was basically a slam on tribalism.
    Ok I just read that quote. It appears that me and Rand are not really using the same definition of tribalism. Or, I disagree with her on the value of the group.

    I think I may just be taking what I agree with from both parties, Rand and Quinn.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    The best examples I can think of for recognizing the true values of a tribe are the books by Daniel Quinn. There might be a way better book out there on the subject, but it wouldn't be popular since almost no English-speaking person likes to think of these tribes as having superior values/systems in some ways.

    Objectivism
    John Galt Speech Summarized
    Rand Speech to West Point
    The thing about tribal living is that it might be something that is unique to the upper paleolithic era. I don't know much about it. As far as I know, in the middle paleolithic, humans migrated with animals and there is no evidence of sedentary tribes much more than 10kya-20kya or so ago.

    I saw Atlas Shrugged Part I when it came out, I might see Part II also.

    What confuses me is how it differs from Objectivity and Subjectivity (philosophy). Can you answer that for me?

  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    If not backed ultimately by violence what fuck should I give about Microsoft's stickers?
    You shouldn't. I don't.

    But, it does allow a customer to know they are getting the real product and not some cheap copy which might have viruses in it.

    If Microsoft actually provided something of value that customers wanted, then they would pay the extra money to make sure they get the hologram stickers.

  4. #484
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    Just googled "Ayn Rand and intellectual property". It's an interested debate within the libertarian circles. Rand supported the state's role in protecting IP ("there's your police", he couldn't resist adding) but many moderns don't.

    Ideas Are Free: The Case Against Intellectual Property - Stephan Kinsella - Mises Daily

  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    They understood that we all do better when we all do better.
    Really? Here's a lecture on New Urbanism. This is part 4 of a 9-part lecture (the whole thing is good). Focus on what he says at about 4 minutes into this video....about the need for wealthy people in a community in order for philanthropy and create culture.
    Lecture Part 4 of 9 - YouTube

    On a bigger picture from this lecture is the understanding of building communities congruent with human nature. Centralized urban planning, whether in a collectivist's or capitalist's economy, can still get wrong. But in a collectivist system there is less freedom for the individual to migrate up (or down) the economic class, less chance for philanthropy.

    My biggest problem with collectivism is the requirement for everyone to be equally altruistic which is impossible. You can't force that emotion into someone and is IMO why socialist economies fall.

    I'll take what is suppose to be the American system of government
    What is America's True Form of Government? - YouTube
    Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    Ok I just read that quote. It appears that me and Rand are not really using the same definition of tribalism. Or, I disagree with her on the value of the group.

    I think I may just be taking what I agree with from both parties, Rand and Quinn.
    It gets tricky. "Tribalism" in a modern sense can mean something ugly -- which is what Rand is pointing out.

    My point in bring up tribes, among other human groupings, is that a "primative communism" is a default material system for humans.

  7. #487
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    Tribalism by its nature is small groups who bound together out of necessity for protection division of labor. Just because that maybe/is the default doesn't mean it'll translate to a larger social structure.
    Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grok View Post
    The thing about tribal living is that it might be something that is unique to the upper paleolithic era. I don't know much about it. As far as I know, in the middle paleolithic, humans migrated with animals and there is no evidence of sedentary tribes much more than 10kya-20kya or so ago.

    I saw Atlas Shrugged Part I when it came out, I might see Part II also.

    What confuses me is how it differs from Objectivity and Subjectivity (philosophy). Can you answer that for me?
    I can't. I'm not well read on Rand. In fact, I brought her up as a discussion point because I thought it sounded interesting.

    It sounds like Objectivity is another name for philosophical realism. Kant's rationalism was a response to this realism. Rand's objectivism is a response to Kant's. Very roughly, that is how the time line appears to me.


    Re:Tribalism. Tribes do not have to be sedentary. They can migrate with animals. I think tribalism is about knowing our evolutionary history and using that to create a knowledge base for what we are. Part of that could be "Primal Blueprint". The more philosophical and important part that we are discussing is the economy of the tribe and the views on life of individual tribal members, who are unfettered by modern distractions. I will quote Tecumseh, a Shawnee chief, that summarizes what these views are. (This poem is sometimes also credited to Wabasha, Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse and Wovoka)

    So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide.

    Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none.

    When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and no thing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision.

    When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.

  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott F View Post
    Tribalism by its nature is small groups who bound together out of necessity for protection division of labor. Just because that maybe/is the default doesn't mean it'll translate to a larger social structure.
    It doesn't. When a tribe gets bigger than, say 150 people, it needs to break up. Supporting the role of a tribe, local group of people, or smaller economy equates to supporting sort of what the Confederates had in mind during the Civil War. If you take this tribalism to our modern government, we are talking about more rights for states, counties, and districts. The nation is there for only the basics. Things like the Bill of Rights, unified support if in war, etc. The tricky, unanswered question here is how much the nation has to protect her smaller groups within from any basic harm. The more technology we have, the more globalism we have; how do we protect without taking rights from these localities?

    As I have stated before,
    Communism satisfies the equal rights but doesn't work on a bigger scale because people are powerless, and Capitalism gives people some power but doesn't work because people aren't equal.
    Last edited by wiltondeportes; 07-25-2012 at 01:38 PM.

  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott F View Post
    But in a collectivist system there is less freedom for the individual to migrate up (or down) the economic class, less chance for philanthropy.
    With those points you're barking up the wrong tree with me. I don't like classes or philanthropy.

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