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  1. #451
    JWBooth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    The myriad clans, tribes, villages, kibbutzim, families, kinship networks, etc.... Humans are naturall cooperative and for good reason, we would have perished long ago if we weren't.
    Socialism is the opposite of "cooperation" though. Cooperation by definition doesn't require a massive government and a police or regulatory state to enforce it. I don't hand over a third of my money to the parasites in Washington and Tallahassee out of a spirit of "cooperation". I do it because they have an army of thugs that will put me in a cage if I don't. Family cooperates. Communities or "tribes" cooperate. Socialist Police States terrorize and steal. They are the modern day Mongol hordes.

  2. #452
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    You said it, JWB! Would add: businesses and customers cooperate.

  3. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrsToon View Post
    businesses and customers cooperate.
    ...against the laboring class. I prefer the Wobbly strategy of uniting employees and customers against the bosses.
    “The whole concept of a macronutrient, like that of a calorie, is determining our language game in such a way that the conversation is not making sense." - Dr. Kurt Harris

  4. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by magicmerl View Post
    Tribalism is a form of socialism
    Well, if Tribalism is a form of socialism, then Tribalism is not what we had in prehistoric times.

    I actually tried to figure out what you meant by Tribalism by going to Wikipedia and looking it up there. There was no mention of socialism there. However the Wikipedia authors on the topic made some incredibly outrageous claims like humans can not live without a tribe which is a collectivist argument which has no basis in reality or fact.

    I then did a google search of tribalism and socialism and found this interesting quote from Ayn Rand:

    What are the nature and the causes of modern tribalism? Philosophically, tribalism is the product of irrationalism and collectivism. It is a logical consequence of modern philosophy. If men accept the notion that reason is not valid, what is to guide them and how are they to live?

    Obviously, they will seek to join some group—any group—which claims the ability to lead them and to provide some sort of knowledge acquired by some sort of unspecified means. If men accept the notion that the individual is helpless, intellectually and morally, that he has no mind and no rights, that he is nothing, but the group is all, and his only moral significance lies in selfless service to the group—they will be pulled obediently to join a group. But which group? Well, if you believe that you have no mind and no moral value, you cannot have the confidence to make choices—so the only thing for you to do is to join an unchosen group, the group into which you were born, the group to which you were predestined to belong by the sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient power of your body chemistry.

    This, of course, is racism. But if your group is small enough, it will not be called “racism”: it will be called “ethnicity.”[1]

    [1] Tribalism — Ayn*Rand Lexicon

  5. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grok View Post
    Well, Sweden is the most "racist" country when it comes to hiring people, and this certainly is not something we should try to emulate in my opinion.

    However, in the book, this fact was used as an example as to why socialism in Sweden is on the downward trend. It may take a few more years, but socialism will fail in Sweden too. It is physically impossible to make socialism work in accordance with human nature. Get over it.

    BTW, you have yet to give me one single example of where socialism exists naturally with humans.
    And unfettered capitalism works (or can work)? Sure. If you say so. Why don't you check how it ended up in Europe in the first half of the 20th century? BTW, the last time I checked, Sweden (and the entire Europe) was capitalistic.

  6. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grok View Post
    I then did a google search of tribalism and socialism and found this interesting quote from Ayn Rand
    Found Ayn Rand, stopped looking.

    She's full of it. Collectivity doesn't require you to surrender your mind. Only in the tortured logic of Rand is there no distinction to be made between fascists and the Iriquois. Plus capitalism -- even the "unfettered" kind takes a lot of collective effort. There's no John Galt who built this here internet. It took a lot of people working cooperatively. It also took a lot of public money.

  7. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    Found Ayn Rand, stopped looking.

    She's full of it. Collectivity doesn't require you to surrender your mind. Only in the tortured logic of Rand is there no distinction to be made between fascists and the Iriquois. Plus capitalism -- even the "unfettered" kind takes a lot of collective effort. There's no John Galt who built this here internet. It took a lot of people working cooperatively. It also took a lot of public money.
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  8. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWBooth View Post
    Cooperation by definition doesn't require a massive government and a police or regulatory state to enforce it.
    But capitalism does. It requires a massive police state to guard private property and collect the taxes to pay for it.
    Last edited by Rojo; 07-24-2012 at 12:35 PM.

  9. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaohinon View Post
    ...against the laboring class. I prefer the Wobbly strategy of uniting employees and customers against the bosses.
    As opposed to carrying water for the bosses and calling yourself a revolutionary? You crazy.

  10. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
    Found Ayn Rand, stopped looking.

    She's full of it. Collectivity doesn't require you to surrender your mind. Only in the tortured logic of Rand is there no distinction to be made between fascists and the Iriquois. Plus capitalism -- even the "unfettered" kind takes a lot of collective effort. There's no John Galt who built this here internet. It took a lot of people working cooperatively. It also took a lot of public money.
    Have you considered that peopled joined/stayed in tribes for their own personal interest? Not for an ideal of everyone being equal and fair?

    I like what I've read of Rand's, and I don't see how it conflicts with tribalism.

    PS- this reminds me of the failed logic on primitives being noble savages, including misunderstandings on tribal warfare.
    Last edited by wiltondeportes; 07-24-2012 at 10:10 PM.

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