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  1. #41
    MamaGrok's Avatar
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    It's individual. No magic formula. Eat enough to nourish yourself, feel satisfied, and head off cravings (the ones that are for huge amounts of non-nutrient-dense foods). Having excess fat is mostly about hormonal imbalance, metabolic derangement, and/or inflammatory disease - not about CICO. Removing fat is treating just one symptom; the disorder remains and the symptom will come back if you only treat the symptom.

    I think Julia Ross' book The Diet Cure is a fantastic overall exploration of health and nutrition.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by MamaGrok View Post
    It's individual. No magic formula. Eat enough to nourish yourself, feel satisfied, and head off cravings (the ones that are for huge amounts of non-nutrient-dense foods).
    Agreed here.

    Having excess fat is mostly about hormonal imbalance, metabolic derangement, and/or inflammatory disease - not about CICO.
    I agree that fat accumulation can be more than a calorie imbalance, but I disagree completely that it has nothing to do with calories in calories out. I don't want to turn this thread into another CICO argument, but in controlled studies, when a caloric deficit is established, people lose weight.
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  3. #43
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    I started my primal journey by attempting the BP formula. I like a lot of it and a lot of it isn't for me or can be done in a MUCH more cost effective way. The cool thing about Dave Asprey, the founder, is he admits as much and is basically stating this is what worked for him.

    No. It's not really a fast because you're ingesting healthy fats. It's just that you don't need as much solid food in the morning when jumping on the BP coffee. Here's what I've experienced:

    1. I started with BP coffee, and now my wife swears by this ultimate low michotoxin formula, they do roast the beans in butter as well so there's a coating of fat over the coffee. This is also supposed to encapsulate the caffeine and turn it fat soluble, giving you more energy over a longer period.

    Honestly I don't know if any of that makes a difference. Trying it with other locally roasted beans seems just as good. After all the recipe calls for you to at a minimum add a tablespoon or two of butter into your coffee plus a tablespoon of MCT oil. The cool thing is NONE of these supplements need to be ordered from Dave Asprey's site Bulletproofexec.com - Just buy yourself some grass fed butter, find some MCT oil at the store near the other oils, or just use Coconut oil and call it good. you're 90% there with minimal cost.

    2. Use a pour over method. Boiling water and steeping your coffee using a french press or aero press, a mikita filter, or chemex greatly reduces the acidity in the coffee. Percolated coffee that just sits in the pot denatures all day and gets more acidic the longer it sits on that burner.

    3. Dave doesn't exercise. He swears by this. He's in shape, he relentlessly follows this diet (his own) and does 45 minutes of exercise per month. I do more in a week than he does in a year. The primal method of the carb sweet spot of 100-150 a day seems to help me tremendously. If I don't have any carbs I just get into a state of fatigue where I don't feel like my muscles are repairing and my sleep pattern goes to garbage. I now disagree with him on this point, but who am I, certainly not a scientist with a major company.

    4. I lost 23 pounds in less than a month on this low carb approach. Picking up the primal approach in the last two months and going more mainstream (I guess you call it that) Paleo, my weight has sort of baselined. Although now I'm happy with it because every week when I lift heavy things and do my other work outs I can see more definition in every area of my body. My wife has commented on it too which is a HUGE plus.

    So bottom line:
    I would try to do the BP routine without buying anything. Just eat primal, and if you want to start your day off with some quick absorbing fats then do the coconut oil and butter in the morning. Make sure you use a blender and then eat "normal" the rest of the day. I'm a fan of exercise, so I would subscribe to that a couple times a week and get some well timed primal carbs during the right windows of time before and after your work outs.

    Today I started with a cup of coffee, butter, MCT oil, and a couple wedges of home made almond paleo bars. I loved it. For lunch I'm going to have some more protein after my workout and a ton of leafy greens. yum.
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  4. #44
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    Thanks for the detailed advice all. I am going to get the Diet Cure book as MamaGrok suggested. I'm on BCP so maybe that has my hormones out of whack. However, that is not new (on it since I was 30). The high fat keto diet was new for the past 3months after I read Volek and Phinney which resulted in weight gain. I would get so fustrated with the gain eating specifically according to their suggested plan that I would then quit and go on a carb binge (always gluten free - fruit, rice, ice cream) for 2days which would net additional water weight gain.

    I think I have finally concluded that although I need some fat to feel satisfied my body does not like high fat.

    Tekshow- much appreciated input. I do like the MCT in my coffee as I feel is gives me energy, butter not so much. I would rather add cream. How much fat did you eat during your weight loss?

    Someone suggested Lyle McDonald. Thoughts?

  5. #45
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    jakejoh, the reason it can work in a lab and not in real life is because in real life, eventually, your body will overtake your brain and tell you to move less (b/c you're taking in more) or just ramp up your cravings so high that you eat more. When there is no one with a syringe giving strict caloric control, the body takes over to preserve life (for instance, if it determines that the fat it has is necessary because it is keeping toxins/excessestrogen/etc. safely stored to prevent the excess from overwhelming an overburdened detox system, or because it is leptin resistant and doesn't know that it already has plenty of fat, or because the firmicute:bacteroidete ratio is grossly skewed).

    Have you forgotten, though, about the studies where obese rats were given low calories and instead of losing weight, died fat? (I believe they were leptin resistant, IIRC.)
    5'4" 36yo mother to five sweeties & married to their AMAZING DaddyGrok
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by MamaGrok View Post
    jakejoh, the reason it can work in a lab and not in real life is because in real life, eventually, your body will overtake your brain and tell you to move less (b/c you're taking in more) or just ramp up your cravings so high that you eat more.
    But this does not mean that CICO is ineffective, you just have to find a way to make it fit into your lifestyle and make sustainable changes. In order to lose weight, you have to be in an energy deficit. There's no way around it. Yes, metabolism (more specifically, energy expenditure) decreases as you diet, but this is obligatory. As you lose weight, you burn less calories.

    Again, I understand that it's not just black and white, calories in calories out. But, it is the basis of a fat loss diet.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by MamaGrok View Post
    Have you forgotten, though, about the studies where obese rats were given low calories and instead of losing weight, died fat? (I believe they were leptin resistant, IIRC.)
    Could you link the studies?
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  8. #48
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    My experience with bulletproof coffee and eventually the RFL protocol was the start of my 45-50lb weight gain. I don't know if I took badly to low-carb or my body doesn't like eating lots of fats, but it was NOT working and I was in denial about it. Later tests show I shouldn't be having a primarily high-fat diet -- unsure if it's the CW way of thinking or legitimate, but my N=1 concurs. I keep natural fats in, but not as my main source.

    I had lost and maintained the loss of 55lbs before switching to Primal. When I switched to PB, I maintained for a few months, and then I discovered Bulletproof coffee. After a month or so, my pants were getting tighter... and tighter... and then I had to purchase the next size up. I dropped the butter coffee, but continued high-fat and continued to gain until I eventually stepped on the scale and went 'w-t-f'.

    Still finding my way back, slowly. I still have some MCT oil in my coffee (with a bit of coconut milk) but not a lot -- and at about 250 cals total, isn't too bad. I wish I could have accepted earlier that it wasn't working.

  9. #49
    MamaGrok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakejoh10 View Post
    But this does not mean that CICO is ineffective, you just have to find a way to make it fit into your lifestyle and make sustainable changes.
    But that's my point. If you deprive your body of the nutrients it needs (or that its bacteria or leptin receptors think it needs), it will actually take over your thought processes and overcome every ounce of will power you have and make you get the nutrients it considers most non-negotiable, somehow, someway.

    It is fact, and I have experienced it myself. It is the entire basis of Julia Ross' amazing work in freeing drug, alcohol, and sugar addicts from their addictions. As I said, my calorie intake *increased*, yet I lost weight, because I stopped feeding the inflammatory condition feeding the weight retention. And at another point, when I battled severe binge eating disorder, a simple replenishing of amino acids eliminated every craving I had. I know the power of primal urges for survival over the brain, but I never ever would have believed it had I not experienced it myself.

    Without proper nutrition, no amount of willpower is enough (which is why all diets fail after the person has spent long enough restricting calories). With proper nutrition, almost no willpower is needed - just eat what you need (from a variety of naturally available and naturally prepared unprocessed foods, or you risk re-establishing the deficiency that got you there in the first place) and depart.

    Sorry, no, I'm not a link collector like I was in the early days of the interwebz. I try to spend as little time as possible online these days; I've lost too much of my life in cyberspace. Besides, I find it's much more effective when people find the facts themselves. But this one's not too hard to find, so I'm sure you'll turn it up quickly.
    5'4" 36yo mother to five sweeties & married to their AMAZING DaddyGrok
    Starting: 185 lbs (March '10)
    Current: 132.5 lbs
    Goal: 135 lbs (Hit Jan '13)
    Beating bingeing since 10/31/11 on my Leptin Reset journey

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MamaGrok View Post
    But that's my point. If you deprive your body of the nutrients it needs (or that its bacteria or leptin receptors think it needs), it will actually take over your thought processes and overcome every ounce of will power you have and make you get the nutrients it considers most non-negotiable, somehow, someway.

    It is fact, and I have experienced it myself. It is the entire basis of Julia Ross' amazing work in freeing drug, alcohol, and sugar addicts from their addictions. As I said, my calorie intake *increased*, yet I lost weight, because I stopped feeding the inflammatory condition feeding the weight retention. And at another point, when I battled severe binge eating disorder, a simple replenishing of amino acids eliminated every craving I had. I know the power of primal urges for survival over the brain, but I never ever would have believed it had I not experienced it myself.

    Without proper nutrition, no amount of willpower is enough (which is why all diets fail after the person has spent long enough restricting calories). With proper nutrition, almost no willpower is needed - just eat what you need (from a variety of naturally available and naturally prepared unprocessed foods, or you risk re-establishing the deficiency that got you there in the first place) and depart.

    Sorry, no, I'm not a link collector like I was in the early days of the interwebz. I try to spend as little time as possible online these days; I've lost too much of my life in cyberspace. Besides, I find it's much more effective when people find the facts themselves. But this one's not too hard to find, so I'm sure you'll turn it up quickly.
    You make good points. Certainly, as I said earlier, there can be other factors that play in, especially in situations of metabolic damage, disordered eating, and crazy inflammation. However, I think that this is in the minority of the cases rather than the majority.

    And I agree with you that prolonged caloric restriction is not sustainable, which is why diets that cause a spontaneous reduction in calories without the feeling of being restricted work so well.

    So again, I agree with most of what you're saying. However, to completely discount energy balance from a scientific standpoint is incorrect.

    And no problem, I'm sure I'll find it. Yes, the internet can definitely be a huge time suck.
    My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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