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Thread: CARNIVORE vs. VEGAN

  1. #1
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    About as far as the east is from the west, would be a face-off between Rip Esselstyn (not to mention his father, Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn, who wrote the book, "Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease") and Mark Sisson. Both seem to be exactly 180 degrees in the opposite direction of each other:


    http://engine2diet.com/


    Rip and his father are vegans and swear that consumption of meats and fats and oils is coating layer upon layer of plaque in our arteries that will eventually... well, no need to go further... I'm no preacher.


    What I am is a gentile who needs to find a sensible way of living.


    I would dearly love to be able to hear a debate -- whether video or even email, which I would pay money to hear -- between Rip Esselstyn, a vegan triathelete, and Mark Sisson.


    So much of the primal lifestyle has been working for me, but there is so much more... maybe?... that I DON'T know. Things unseen, colorless, odorless, tasteless, dangers just over the horizon. I'm left to wonder: is this lifestyle I've chosen robbing Peter and one day he's going to punch me in the heart because I decided to give it all to Paul?


  2. #2
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    I don't think it's any mystery that some people do well on a vegan diet. Vegans are naturally inclined to eat real food, since they're facing the same uphill battle against SAD that we are.


    And given the discovery of what the Kitavans eat, the spectrum of "Paleo" eating can very well include a vegan diet.


    Maybe it's heresy to a lot of carnivores, but I consider (most) vegans allies in the struggle against Monsanto, the medical establishment, and the federal government.

    “The whole concept of a macronutrient, like that of a calorie, is determining our language game in such a way that the conversation is not making sense." - Dr. Kurt Harris

  3. #3
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    At some point chazglen, you're just going to need to have faith in the path you choose. Science is a discovery so its endless and ever changing. Everyone is unique and different. What do you value? How do you feel? Remain vigilant and know its never too late to change directions. As long as you stay away from absolute extremes, changing directions here and there should lead you to the same place.


  4. #4
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    I would love to see that debate.


    I guess Im a very scientific minded person, the way our digestive system is structured is omnivorous, so it makes sense to eat meat. Ive been vegetarian before and always felt weak, my blood test results were always 'off', not enough iron, not enough b12, etc. Just not a happy camper. Since starting PB I have more energy, I love eating new combos of healthy foods, I am not dizzy if i dont eat every few hours,etc.


    I know from personal experience that being vegan/vegetarian would not work for me. Could it help certain people lose weight/get healthier? Sure, but my guess is its from eating whole natural foods, which is better than processed crap foods. My guess is if vegans/vegetarians added meat or at least fish to their diets they would feel a hella lot better


  5. #5
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    About the Science -> Heart Disease -> 3. "Reversing Heart Disease With Diet" - T. Colin Campbell


    'nuff said


  6. #6
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    Mark Sisson eats plenty of vegetables. And you can eat both meat and vegetables, there's no need to choose one or the other.


    I also have to say the Kitavans eat fish. They aren't vegans.

    Height: 5'4" (1.62 m)
    Starting weight (09/2009): 200 lb (90.6 kg)
    No longer overweight (08/2010): 145 lb (65.6 kg)
    Current weight (01/2012): 127 lb (57.5 kg)

  7. #7
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    I'm aware they're not vegans, however wasn't their fish consumption something like 10% of the diet? IIRC it was ancillary to a mostly root-vegetable based diet.

    “The whole concept of a macronutrient, like that of a calorie, is determining our language game in such a way that the conversation is not making sense." - Dr. Kurt Harris

  8. #8
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    Yes, something like 10%, but maybe a very important 10%.

    Height: 5'4" (1.62 m)
    Starting weight (09/2009): 200 lb (90.6 kg)
    No longer overweight (08/2010): 145 lb (65.6 kg)
    Current weight (01/2012): 127 lb (57.5 kg)

  9. #9
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    Very important, and ALL parts of the fish - all the guys, eyeballs, brains - BRAINSSS!- skins and fins and bones.


    That stuff goes a long way, mostly because it's ridiculously nutrient dense. Very important 10%.


    Only 20% of the atmosphere is oxygen, after all.


  10. #10
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    There is no one size fits all diet. A population adapts to its food source over time. Those eating cereal grains develop methods of better coping with insulin spikes and those who eat lots of meat develope the tendency for natural alkalinity to balance out the acidity. On and on and on.


    It takes many generations for an adaptation to take place by natural selection. We are stuck with our genes but we can influence our gene expression so there is still some limited adaptability.


    Basically, do what feels right. Unless that something is processed food. Although for most caucasians from Europe, that something should probably include a fair bit of meat and should replace grains with vegetables, fruit, and possibly legumes. Europeans have always been rich and have always eaten meat and while some have eaten grains, the diversity of such a diet has no allowed for as substantial an adaptation to them as in many third world nations that have always relied on them heavily.


    In conclusion, Mark feels that his big ass salad, and I concur, is a very good addition to his diet. It might not be the case for an Eskimo. It may be the case for you, or it may not.

    Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

    Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

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