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Thread: CARNIVORE vs. VEGAN page 3

  1. #21
    lcme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stabby View Post
    There is no one size fits all diet. A population adapts to its food source over time. Those eating cereal grains develop methods of better coping with insulin spikes and those who eat lots of meat develope the tendency for natural alkalinity to balance out the acidity. On and on and on.


    It takes many generations for an adaptation to take place by natural selection. We are stuck with our genes but we can influence our gene expression so there is still some limited adaptability.
    The main point of the PB is that this adaptability is extremely minimal and takes many many generations. As long as there are enough calories for an individual to make it to reproductive age there is absolutely no selective force. This is the problem that we have been facing since the paleolithic age; agriculture provided us with lots of easy calories allowing us to survive and spread around the planet. It's the lack of our proper diet that we evolved on that has stopped modern humans from truly being able to thrive.

  2. #22
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    There is a video debate out there with Taubes, Ornish, and someone from a heart-disease-related association, or maybe a dietetics association? They kind of go at it... Oh, and I just found the link:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdBDQdOKbJQ

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by lcme View Post
    The main point of the PB is that this adaptability is extremely minimal and takes many many generations. As long as there are enough calories for an individual to make it to reproductive age there is absolutely no selective force. This is the problem that we have been facing since the paleolithic age; agriculture provided us with lots of easy calories allowing us to survive and spread around the planet. It's the lack of our proper diet that we evolved on that has stopped modern humans from truly being able to thrive.
    Quite so. I'm just saying that some people have adaptations to harmful things and while a paleolithic diet is a good choice for anyone, there will likely be certain individual variations that one should take into account. East Asians have quite a good adaptation to high amounts of starch and French people generally have a good adaptation to lactose and casein. Perhaps some people would do better with more vegetables, perhaps some people would benefit from adding a few generally good neolithic foods like butter, kefir, tempeh, etc. Various herbs and spices are demonstrably beneficial and I do think that supplementation has its merits and will continue to improve as science does.

    Grains and legumes are most definitely out of the picture though. Bleh to them.

    If any of William Wolcott's metabolic typing stuff makes sense, it is the acid/alkaline balance. Eskimos for example would be very naturally alkaline and should avoid too many alkaline foods to avoid over-alkalinity. But look at the Kitvans. They will more naturally be acidic and would do well to avoid too much meat.

    I don't think that too much deviance from the general primal blueprint is a good idea, but I doubt that everyone would be best off physiologically as a carnivore.

    Nobody is best off as a vegan, that's for damn sure.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbonnell View Post
    It is an interesting question - in Michael Pollan's "In Defense of Food" he pretty much sums it up that any traditional diet (i.e. anything that ISN'T the Western Diet) is good. High fat, lower fat, high protein, lower protein...it doesn't matter that much if we actually eat REAL food.


    We humans are very adaptable, and can eat just about anything...whether or not we're at our optimal health, or just in good health on any given diet is individual to an extent...I mean we're all basically exactly the same on the inside. As much as I love the PB and am doing great on it, I don't think that someone who eats some other kind of traditional, non-Western diet is never going to enjoy good health.
    I agree 100% with this post.

    The diet of my fellow mexican natives (wich is mostly corn and beans) as keeping them healthy for centuries.

    Now that many of them are using a "western" diet is that the illness that affect the entire civilized world are getting around by record numbers.

  5. #25
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    Esselstyn is promoting lots of vegetables. We eat lots of vegetables as well. He would ditch the meat for beans/soy; which are high in cabohydrates. Meat ; eggs have zero glycemic index. Both diets are similar. His patients; eat less donuts; and more veggies; so they lose weight. We all agree veggies are good. Then its the old debate between more fat or more carbs. I think Mark Sisson has the better science. Esselstyn is using the "fat clogs your pipes" paradigm. But arteries are not sewer pipes. There is a complex inflammatory mechanism occurring; caused by glycemic load; sugars; carbs. Not fats.
    Last edited by zebonaut; 08-04-2013 at 09:00 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stabby View Post
    In conclusion, Mark feels that his big ass salad, and I concur, is a very good addition to his diet.
    Anyone know where I can source free-range, grain-fed, big asses?

    It's completely wrecking my life to not have access to this primal staple of which he speaks so highly!!

  7. #27
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    Here's the deal,

    Everyone is different and does well on an individualized diet; however, as humans there are specific nutrients that we need to thrive and be as healthy as possible. A number of those minerals/vitamins are mainly contained in animal products (Vitamin B12, Vitamin A, copper, zinc, chronium, safe complete proteins, vitamin K from milk products, gelatin from bone broths, etc).

    It seems to be much harder to get sufficient amount of the above when one is not eating animal products, and thus much harder to be optimally healthy. That being said there are many other important vitamins and minerals contained in plants foods, so indeed an omnivore, real food, diet is ideal I think.

    I will not even go into the whole saturated fat and cholesterol cause heart disease comment, because that is far dead (ie. proven incorrect long ago)

    Thanks,

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady D View Post
    Anyone know where I can source free-range, grain-fed, big asses?
    America

  9. #29
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    Vegetables are good for health as they are rich with vitamins a thing very vital for proper body functioning.I am a vegetarian and the results of my experience are very good an make made me healthy comparatively.Anyhow thanks to all for nice contribution.

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