I am on a juice fast, taking collagen protein and in ketosis - Question: page

[drettinger]

I am on a juice fast, taking collagen protein and in ketosis - Question at bottom:

Supporting data:

I have been on a juice fast for 9 days now and have been in ketosis since day 3. I am drinking 75 oz of carrot, a variety of green vegetables and a total of 1.5 apples and 1.5 pears per day in the juice blend. I am taking 25 grams of collagen hydrolysate protein per day and 32 oz of vegetable soup broth that has a little bit of collagen protein dissolved in it.

I've lost 8.5 lbs and 3% body fat in the last 9 days.

Calories and grams: carbs and sugars

Averaged estimate of calories of juice 117 being high per 8oz, 72 being low est. per 8oz. My average is 100.

75oz/8oz = 9.375 x 100 calories = 937 from the juice.
25 grams protein = 100 calories
Soup broth = 75 calories

Net calories = 1112

Grams carbs = 173.5
Grams sugar = 48
(Based on labeling of various juice products.)

Question: I'm in ketosis while consuming 173 grams of carbs. I know that I'm also on less than 1200 calories per day. Since I'm taking 25 grams of protein is

1. the gluconeogenisis primarily from that and minimally or none coming from my skeletal muscle?
2. Do I still have enough glycogen in my liver and muscles to facilitate glycogenolysis?.
3. Is glycerol from triglycerides the only precursor of ketone bodies or is adipose tissue also a source of ketone bodies?
4. If I up my protein and stay in ketosis, theoretically, can I preserve all of my lean muscle mass.

Thank you in advance!

Sincerely,

Dr. Marcus Ettinger

P.S. Just wanted to add this:

I am aware that 25 grams of protein is not enough. I usually consume between 1.5-1.7 grams protein/kg. I have put myself in ketosis many times on a high protein low carb (paleo style) diet (no starch, beans or dairy - 50-55% calories from fat, rest from veg and protein ). I'm boggled that I'm in moderate ketosis while consuming so many grams of sugar. Almost 1200 calories a day is not starvation. My strength at the gym is still the same. I know if I up my protein I will still be in ketosis.

[Chaohinon]

Why are you torturing yourself?

[Nady]

You are not fasting. You are crash dieting and with your carb/calorie levels, are preventing your body from going into 'protein sparing mode'. So, to answer your question, 25 gm. of protein is not enough. You are probably breaking down protein from your muscles to support the protein needs of your vital organs.

[drettinger]

Nady,

Just wanted to add this:

I am aware that 25 grams of protein is not enough. I usually consume between 1.5-1.7 grams protein/kg. I have put myself in ketosis many times on a high protein low carb (paleo style) diet (no starch, beans or dairy - 50-55% calories from fat, rest from veg and protein ). I'm boggled that I'm in moderate ketosis while consuming so many grams of sugar. Almost 1200 calories a day is not starvation. My strength at the gym is still the same. I know if I up my protein I will still be in ketosis.

[drettinger]

Chaolinon,

I don't feel it's torture, I feel great, and it's only for 14 days. I live a paleo lifestyle and I'm just doing this to show myself that food is just food, it's fuel. We place food at a central point in our lives, most things revolve around it. It's amazing how much time we spend thinking about where to go, and what to eat, and what to ware.... Food takes-up a lot of our time. I just want to be free of that for 14 days.

Right now I'm really interested in the biochemistry and physiology of what I'm doing. This is also a chemistry experiment. Any help I can get is much appreciated.

[CaveWeirdo]

I've never done a long semi-fast like this but if I did I would have zero fruit and more fat.

Also bear in mind that several pounds of the weight you lost could be accounted for by depleted glycogen stores, and these several pounds will come back any time you have a normal day of eating. I'm hoping you are doing this for health reasons though, not just to see the number on the scale go down.

I personally don't really see the point of doing this. I believe you could get the same results by eating one meal a day and you wouldn't have to clean out the blender every day...

[drettinger]

CaveWeirdo,

I have been practicing integrative medicine doctor for 23 years and have done things like this before. Being in ketosis and depleting glycogen stores only accounts for about 2-3 lbs of the weight loss. (1lb of fat is made-up of 3/4th's water, so really I'm losing a lot of water).

I put patients on a ketogenic diet to lose weight and when they go back to a low-glycemic/paleo type diet, I only see a 2-3lb jump in the proceeding 24-48 hours.

I don't have enough time or I would love to share w/you why there is no substitute for juicing (not juice fasting). I'm only 170 normally, so I'm not doing this to lose weight. It truly is a mind/body/spirit cleansing. My skin broke-out the first couple of days, I passed a ton of saponified bile (fats + bile) flushed from the gall baldder - now that's some junk being eliminated.

I recommend watching, "Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead." It's a 97 minute video that will explain some of why I'm doing this. Juicing or juice fasting is really something that almost everyone can benefit from. Hulu - Fat, Sick & Nearly Dead - Watch the full movie now.

Take care.

[jojohaligo]

I can't help you with your chemistry questions, but I wish you the best with your mind/body/spirit cleansing. A prolonged fast from solid food is difficult for many to get their heads around, but fasting as a spiritual practice has been around for millenia.

J.

[Neckhammer]

At 14 days as a mind/spiritual thing then have at it....as for the "cleansing" aspect I just don't buy it. Sorry, but if you are quite particular about your food sources then there really should be no biological need to cleanse. Like I said fasting for spiritual or mental clarity are a different issue. I personally do so with just water fasts. I understand the concepts about water fasts being a bit more abrasive due to large amounts of toxins in our systems, but if you already have been eating clean then you should not have too much of a problem with it.

As to your questions...well I suppose since you practice FM then you understand you could have provided some more lab work to guide the answers. But to guess at it....

1. why any gluconeogenisis? Your consuming enough glucose for the areas of the body that specifically need glucose. If your fat/keto adapted (you actually don't state if you were prior to starting your fast, this would be a biggy to consider) you should be able to burn your own fat for fuel right?

2. fructose refills liver glycogen fairly aggressively (far better than glucose actually)....this is the only good side of those HFCS sports drinks for extreme sports persons, say marathons and such. I think your getting plenty of fructose for this, if not more than needed.

3. honestly I forget....I'm sure you could google this as well as I could though.

4. the greatest determinate in any study of keeping lean mass while in a caloric deficit is resistance training. As long as you continue to do this you are more likely to retain lean mass. But, upping protein certainly could also help.

Just top of my head answers. I might actually have to do some google searches for more in depth stuff. I have seen that movie and I stand by my original response. Either way good luck!

[drettinger]

Jojohaligo,

Thank you for the support!

Dr. E