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Thread: I am on a juice fast, taking collagen protein and in ketosis - Question: page 2

  1. #11
    j3nn's Avatar
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    I watched "Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead" on Hulu recently. It's a great documentary. I bought a juicer on Amazon the next day. I haven't started juicing yet, but can't wait to do it for a few days. The idea of getting lots and lots of nutrients into your body without having to eat copious amoubts of them sounds refreshing to me. A friend introduced me to freshly squeezed carrot and apple juice recently and, I love it! Add in some greens and I'm quite satisfied by it.

    Anyway, just wanted to mention that the freshly squeezed juice actually has a good amount of protein in it; it isn't completely left out when juiced and has nearly as much as it has when you include the pulp. I plan to add a teaspoon of fat to my juice for optimal nutrient absorption. The fat, sick, and nearly dead creator has a lot of good recipes on his blog with the nutritional profile attached.
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  2. #12
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    Neckhammer,

    I get where your coming from. I'm 47 and do eat a pretty clean diet, but after seeing what came came out of me day 5 and my skin erupting for 2 days, I know there was some funk in there. Not much but it was in there.

    On #4, to clarify: are you saying that working-out on a caloric restricted diet HELPS maintain lean muscle or LOSE lean muscle more easily.

    Thanks,

    Dr. E

  3. #13
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    J3nn,

    Thanks for that data, I will check-out his sight. Here is a typical juice for me right now:

    Persian Cucumber, Celery, Italian parsley, spinach, kale, radish w/the leaves, carrot, asparagus, red or green cabbage, Granny Smith apple, kiwi or pear. 24oz a sitting. I have also used: watermellon w/rind, water cress (spicy like horse radish), broccoli, chard, red leaf lettuce, jalapeno and beet w/leaves

    Take care,

    Dr. E

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by drettinger View Post
    Neckhammer,

    I get where your coming from. I'm 47 and do eat a pretty clean diet, but after seeing what came came out of me day 5 and my skin erupting for 2 days, I know there was some funk in there. Not much but it was in there.

    On #4, to clarify: are you saying that working-out on a caloric restricted diet HELPS maintain lean muscle or LOSE lean muscle more easily.

    Thanks,

    Dr. E
    From what I can tell it HELPS maintain....I had recently read this book Amazon.com: The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living: An Expert Guide to Making the Life-Saving Benefits of Carbohydrate Restriction Sustainable and Enjoyable (9780983490708): Stephen D. Phinney, Jeff S. Volek: Books. In it they mention a study that the consistent thing between the low carb and conventional low calorie groups was resistance/strength training helped maintain MORE lean mass regardless of macro breakdown. Other studies definitely indicate that keeping protein up to be important. So if your willing to do it you might increase your protein.

    This might be an instance of deciding what benefits are most important to you though. Is it the therapeutic/autophagic and cleansing aspect or the lean mass. You can probably have a bit of each, but some sacrifice is likely made. I'm really not sure on this last part, and I would bet the science is pretty mixed at this point also. Must admit Mark Sissons recent six part series on fasting is pretty darn good though for an overview How Fasting Aids Weight Loss | Mark's Daily Apple.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    From what I can tell it HELPS maintain....I had recently read this book Amazon.com: The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living: An Expert Guide to Making the Life-Saving Benefits of Carbohydrate Restriction Sustainable and Enjoyable (9780983490708): Stephen D. Phinney, Jeff S. Volek: Books. In it they mention a study that the consistent thing between the low carb and conventional low calorie groups was resistance/strength training helped maintain MORE lean mass regardless of macro breakdown. Other studies definitely indicate that keeping protein up to be important. So if your willing to do it you might increase your protein.

    This might be an instance of deciding what benefits are most important to you though. Is it the therapeutic/autophagic and cleansing aspect or the lean mass. You can probably have a bit of each, but some sacrifice is likely made. I'm really not sure on this last part, and I would bet the science is pretty mixed at this point also. Must admit Mark Sissons recent six part series on fasting is pretty darn good though for an overview How Fasting Aids Weight Loss | Mark's Daily Apple.
    Thank you for the reply and the data. I was planning to up my protein to 0.8 gr protein/kg this week and add 1 tbsp (10gr) flax seed oil. I'll even work-out harder this week to really test the above theory.

    Thanks again,

    Dr. E

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by drettinger View Post
    Thank you for the reply and the data. I was planning to up my protein to 0.8 gr protein/kg this week and add 1 tbsp (10gr) flax seed oil. I'll even work-out harder this week to really test the above theory.

    Thanks again,

    Dr. E
    As to the harder workout...I'm all for high intensity, but I think they reported limiting to 3x/week strength sessions. I would suppose that you could easily run into problems by doing too much volume on your fast. Anyhow good luck and keep up the good work in practice!

  7. #17
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    I find it hard to get my head around the idea of blending and glugging down a shake, rather than munching on some whole veggies/fruits. Now I think about it, it seems more Grok-like to me, to chop them into halves/quarters and simply devour them with one's teeth!

    I munch on squidgy avocado, crunchy celery and enjoy the sensation of a cherry tomato popping in my mouth and wonder - WHY OH WHY would anyone homogenize these things?!

    Maybe I still have an emotional attachment to food that you've managed to rise above?
    Last edited by CaveWeirdo; 04-23-2012 at 09:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveWeirdo View Post
    I find it hard to get my head around the idea of blending and glugging down a shake, rather than munching on some whole veggies/fruits. Now I think about it, it seems more Grok-like to me, to chop them into halves/quarters and simply devour them with one's teeth!

    I munch on squidgy avocado, crunchy celery and enjoy the sensation of a cherry tomato popping in my mouth and wonder - WHY OH WHY would anyone homogenize these things?!

    Maybe I still have an emotional attachment to food that you've managed to rise above?
    I got what you're saying. It is something that one needs to understand and believe in before doing. I have treated 1000's of patients, from terminal cancer patients to long-term autoimmune patients, and everything in between. Nothing, I mean nothing can ever replace the sheer potency of vegetable juicing on a daily basis. I have one cancer patient who was sent home to die twice, 6 years apart and within 90 days of juicing, each time she was cancer free (there were some other components, but juicing was the main one).

    It would be physically impossible to consume the amount and variety, including leaves and skins, of vegetation and fruit. 10lbs or more pounds of veg/fruit, per day go into making these juices. Also, the cellulose, insoluble, fiber traps a lot of the phytonutrients - juicing helps to liberate them.

    Juicing is not a replacement for eating, it's just a way of getting copious amounts of fresh, vital enzymes and other micro nutrients.

    This is just a tease for what juicing can do.

    Thanks for the posing. Take care.

    Dr. Ettinger

  9. #19
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    I can see how concentrating the nutrients and removing a great deal of fiber would have a super healing effect. I have felt for myself the wonderful difference that lowering fiber intake can have!

    But in doing so you are also concentrating the sugars. I can't help but question the wisdom of taking healthy nutrients along with a huge dose of sugar.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by drettinger View Post
    Question: I'm in ketosis while consuming 173 grams of carbs. I know that I'm also on less than 1200 calories per day. Since I'm taking 25 grams of protein is

    1. the gluconeogenisis primarily from that and minimally or none coming from my skeletal muscle?
    2. Do I still have enough glycogen in my liver and muscles to facilitate glycogenolysis?.
    3. Is glycerol from triglycerides the only precursor of ketone bodies or is adipose tissue also a source of ketone bodies?
    4. If I up my protein and stay in ketosis, theoretically, can I preserve all of my lean muscle mass.

    Thank you in advance!
    Well, you are actually eating a very high fat calorie restricted diet:

    If your 8.5 lbs. of weight loss was all due to fat loss, then you would be averaging approximately 1 lb. of fat loss per day, or , putting it in other terms, you would be consuming 1 lb. of your own adipose tissue ( autolysis ) to make up for the energy deficit created by restricting caloric intake. This implies creating a daily caloric deficit on the order of 4700 cal. due to 3500 calories from autolysis of one pound of adipose fat and the additional 1200 calories that you are eating. This is a massive energy deficit, and I expect extremely unlikely. Nevertheless, this represents a diet that is roughly 75% fat and 25% carbohydrates, which I would expect to be rather ketogenic.

    If we assume that half of your weightloss was due to water ( we would expect that while in ketosis ), your average fat loss per day would be approximately 1800 calories, making your diet 1800 F, 800 CHO, and 200 P, which still has 65% of calories coming from fat. Again, I would expect this to be quite ketogenic.

    Glycerol is a great substrate for gluconeogenesis as two glycerol molecules can be used to produce one glucose molecule. Mitochondrial oxidation of non-esterified fatty acids produce ketones, meaning that as your body strips fatty acids from the glycerol backbone, they get oxidized and produce ketone bodies. At the same time, your liver gets a fresh supply of bare glycerol from which to synthesize fresh glucose!

    With respect to your question #4, you are probably eating significantly below your maintenance requirements, I think you would need to be at least at 1.5 g/kg of body weight to maintain your muscle mass, and this would depend to a very large extent on your training. Heavier training would imply more muscular trauma, and accordingly, a higher need for protein. Your body needs to get nitrogen from somewhere, and if you don't provide it in the diet, it will be scavenged from other sources.

    -PK
    My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

    Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

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