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Thread: Red meat consumption, iron metabolism and accelerated aging page 4

  1. #31
    ProtoAlex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoLogicCheck View Post
    Ding, ding, ding....I think we have a ^^^winner^^^ my fellow groks.

    Anybody listening here...Bueller?? Bueller??
    I don't get it, is Ben Stein terrible at making logical conclusions?

    I grew up on absolute junk food and plenty of conventional red meat. When first tried to apply for my passport at age 24 they told me to come back with an adult because children under the age of 14 weren't allowed to apply for passports on their own. At 30 without a beard I would get mistaken for a high school student or if lucky a college undergrad.

    Better counterpoint: my brother with hemachromatosis (and a smoker) looks just as young for his age as I do. And he subsists on a diet of oreos and cocacola.
    "You can demonstrate the purpose and limits of human digestion with a simple experiment: eat a steak with some whole corn kernels, and see what comes out the other end. It won’t be the steak."
    -J.Stanton

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProtoAlex View Post
    I don't get it, is Ben Stein terrible at making logical conclusions?
    Hopefully we can at least both chuckle at this:

    Bueller, Bueller - YouTube

    The analogy is I (Ben Stein) keep asking for a response from somebody (Bueller / people on this board who agree with me on this topic) who's obviously not there.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProtoAlex View Post
    I grew up on absolute junk food and plenty of conventional red meat. When first tried to apply for my passport at age 24 they told me to come back with an adult because children under the age of 14 weren't allowed to apply for passports on their own. At 30 without a beard I would get mistaken for a high school student or if lucky a college undergrad.

    Better counterpoint: my brother with hemachromatosis (and a smoker) looks just as young for his age as I do. And he subsists on a diet of oreos and cocacola.
    Yeah, I agree, anecdotal evidence generally misleads. Usually because there are too many 'confounding factors' that haven't been properly screened out.

    But numerous studies of statistically 'large enough' sample sizes of a common health metric among geographically diverse populations of centenarians doesn't mislead. At least I don't think so.

  3. #33
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    paleo-bunny is offline Senior Member
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    I smoked for about 14 years. I will freely admit to having a hedonistic streak. On the other hand, I've been eating tons of vegetables, garlic, olive oil and oily fish, and no red meat, for the past two decades. There are genetic factors at play on my father's side, but also some environmental ones that are down to my choices. I also enjoy art appreciation, creating art and play, all of which I believe keep me young.

    I am 41. My profile pic was taken a few weeks ago.
    F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoLogicCheck View Post
    Good questions, so I googled them, here's what I found:

    Do Primitive Peoples Really Live Longer? : Disease Proof
    And on paleo sites they tell you that inuit and massai live healther without any elevated risk for cancer, god i hate it that every fucking braindead retard may write something and it passes as facts.

    €: http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives...h-protein.html
    wow what a great and informative page...

    €2: oh btw: "PaleoLogicCheck" is obviously trolling :/
    Last edited by Nekron; 05-03-2012 at 03:30 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekron View Post
    And on paleo sites they tell you that inuit and massai live healther without any elevated risk for cancer, god i hate it that every fucking braindead retard may write something and it passes as facts.
    Exactly, who to believe? Just don't pull a Dick Cheney on us, who every time he said 'the facts of the matter are...' (which was frequently), was a dead give away he was lying or simply ignorant of the facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekron View Post
    €: Low Carb / High Protein : Disease Proof
    wow what a great and informative page...
    I originally did a full 2-minute google search to turn up this page:
    Do Primitive Peoples Really Live Longer? : Disease Proof

    Seemed authoritative but I didn't cross-check it's references nor did I look at any other page on the site. That's real work. Is that too intellectually lazy for your tastes?

    So far, rather than doing any heavy lifting yourself (cross-checking references, finding other credible references that refute it) you've taken the easy way out and merely provided a link to another page from the same site that you know most here will find repelling. Impressive research.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekron View Post
    €2: oh btw: "PaleoLogicCheck" is obviously trolling :/
    [/QUOTE]

    Wrong. I ate liver (uh, red meat) TODAY. I would like to eat steak, hamburgers, etc as frequently as possible. I love the stuff but I think I've learned that 'frequently' may be problematic. The only question I'm trying to get an answer too on this thread is how often can I eat the stuff?


    Simply standing by the statement that 'grok must have eaten lots of red meat', well that sounds overly simplistic to me. Put some numbers too it, with some credible 3rd party references that back them up, if don't want to be a troll yourself.

  6. #36
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    One other general comment: I love the stuff that our Paleo sensei is doing on this site.

    The only issue I have at the moment is how much red meat to consume.
    I am not a vegetarian/vegan or anything like that.

    But, even though our sensei says 'eat plenty of red meat' doesn't mean we should.
    Does anybody remember this 80's movie reference:

    sweep the leg.jpg

  7. #37
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    Well lets start with the premise, that the human body cant regulate iron uptake, which is simply wrong (Hepcidin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia a hormone that basically regulates the absorption of iron that comes with food). This leads to the conclusion, that the healthy human body has a certain range in which it regulates the iron concentration.

    Next point: Its pretty easy to control the ranges of iron in the blood, because low levels result in anemia and very high levels arent reached by food in a healthy human being because of the mechanisms presented above.

    So if you limit your red meat intake, your body will get its iron from the plants or other meats, iron is in everything because everything needs it to live and you are going to take it in if you want it or not. Whats true is, that iron is prone to this whole "free radicals" stuff. And if you do this whole primal thing right (i.e. not only meat but vegetables/fruits as well) you are getting tons of good stuff that helps against said free radicals.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekron View Post
    Well lets start with the premise, that the human body cant regulate iron uptake, which is simply wrong (Hepcidin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia a hormone that basically regulates the absorption of iron that comes with food).
    Thanks for the link and the thoughtful reply. I found this statement particularly interesting:

    "The serial analyses of β-thalassemic mice indicate hemoglobin levels decreases over time, while the concentration of iron in the liver, spleen, and kidneys markedly increases. The overload of iron is associated with low levels of hepcidin."

    Which clarifies something I posted above. Apparently hemoglobin level is not the right indicator to monitor for iron overload, hepcidin is. To show how 'new' this is, even the red cross doesn't screen for low hepcidin (yet) based on my recent visit to a blood drive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekron View Post
    This leads to the conclusion, that the healthy human body has a certain range in which it regulates the iron concentration.

    Next point: Its pretty easy to control the ranges of iron in the blood, because low levels result in anemia and very high levels arent reached by food in a healthy human being because of the mechanisms presented above.
    An 'anecdotal' but absolutely true story from my youth might help put this 'range' in perspective. When I was in elementary school (late 70s) several of the kids teeth in my class turned dark brown/black. Turns out they had been diagnosed with anemia and one of our good small town docs recommended their parents give them iron supplements (pills that taste like candy). Well they were given too much for too long and the side effect was their ruined teeth (which never got better, at least through the end of high school).

    Clearly upping their dietary iron intake exceeded their young bodies ability to regulate iron concentration to a 'safe' level. Yes, this is an extreme case but perhaps, in terms of actual daily iron intake, not much more extreme than somebody who eats red meat every day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekron View Post
    So if you limit your red meat intake, your body will get its iron from the plants or other meats, iron is in everything because everything needs it to live and you are going to take it in if you want it or not.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekron View Post
    Whats true is, that iron is prone to this whole "free radicals" stuff. And if you do this whole primal thing right (i.e. not only meat but vegetables/fruits as well) you are getting tons of good stuff that helps against said free radicals.
    Great point. As I'm sure you know the 'good stuff' is called anti-oxidants. So, the issue you bring up here - which complicates the whole matter - is if there's an 'optimal' ratio between iron concentration and anti-oxidant levels. I'm sure there is but that means dietary guidelines become more complicated.

    Most researchers agree that a primary mechanism behind cellular aging is oxidation. Thus, preventing oxidation at the cellular level is a big part of minimizing the rate of cellular aging. But that doesn't mean we should take extreme amounts of anti-oxidant supplements. Turns out oxidation (as facilitated by iron ions) has a beneficial role in the body as well - it plays a part in immunity. The body relies on oxidation as a means to attack pathogens. So, if the anti-oxidant-to-oxidant ratio is too high - it can't mount an effective immune response to pathogens.


    One other philosophical point on iron metabolism. It's not 'neutral', i.e., it didn't evolve to maintain iron levels between 'safe' and 'dangerous'. It's 'biased' - it evolved to conserve iron levels, i.e. to hold onto iron. Why? Because it's an element and can't be synthesized by the body and is absolutely essential to survival. Therefore, in times of famine, those with good iron reserves survived.

  9. #39
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    An excellent, open (free), 2012 research article summarizing the latest understanding of iron and aging:

    IJMS | Free Full-Text | Impaired Iron Status in Aging Research

    Interesting highlights:

    * 'It has been widely documented that aging is associated with dyshomeostasis of iron metabolism and regulation in both rodents [13–25] (Table 1) and humans [26–32].'

    * 'The elderly are more prone to becoming anemic [33–37], which adversely affects muscle strength [38], physical performance [39], cognition [40] and longevity [41]. In contrast, age-related iron overload is also increasingly being recognized as a public health concern [42–45].'

    *'Their finding that caloric restriction markedly mitigated iron accumulation in multiple tissue systems of aged animals as well as our recent study [17] suggests that caloric restriction beneficially modulates iron dyshomeostasis.'

    * 'Thus, the lack of a cellular iron export mechanism in post-mitotic tissues could be one of the essential factors contributing to iron accumulation in aging.'

    * 'Although iron balance is tightly regulated at the site of absorption (duodenum) [72], rodent diets
    with different iron levels may alter iron homeostasis across studies
    .'

    *'Dietary compounds that inhibit iron absorption (e.g., polyphenols in tea and coffee [124,125]) may offer alternative approaches to mitigate iron accumulation during the aging process. Future research is warranted to test dietary interventions.'

  10. #40
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    I didn't eat red meat for 2 decades, had so many physical and emotional problems. At this point in my life I want my meat.

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