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Thread: Cold Thermogenesis Guidelines/Results page 52

  1. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    I guess it's all about your optic. I'm in sub-arctic Alaska. You are in California.
    Kruse is all about mammalian evolution--not human evolution. All mammal ancestors descended from a few survivors of the KT extinction event. These survivors had to quickly acclimate to cold and darkness. The same survival code is still in all mammals, it is theorized. It just so happened that modern hominids arose in Africa, that doesn't mean their entire lineage also evolved soley in Africa. I kind of get lost why this argument even comes up so often, of course humans can eat and survive on just about anything edible--even sugar and soybean oil.
    Well, if you want to take it back farther along the evolutionary line, we are all descended from reptiles and our reptilian brain is still present and working under all the outer cortex we have developed. Does that mean we should be out basking in the sun instead of sitting in ice water? (Oh, wait, that's what i am doing.)

    The reason the Africa part keeps coming up is because we had millions of years as hominids there in nice toasty warm Africa. That is long enough for us to have gotten some things firmly encoded into our bodies (like a primal diet as opposed to grains). We are not lemurs and never will be but we share virtually all of our DNA with hominids.

  2. #512
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    This thread seems a little to light on the "results" part.
    You lousy kids! Get off my savannah!

  3. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Well, if you want to take it back farther along the evolutionary line, we are all descended from reptiles and our reptilian brain is still present and working under all the outer cortex we have developed. Does that mean we should be out basking in the sun instead of sitting in ice water? (Oh, wait, that's what i am doing.)

    The reason the Africa part keeps coming up is because we had millions of years as hominids there in nice toasty warm Africa. That is long enough for us to have gotten some things firmly encoded into our bodies (like a primal diet as opposed to grains). We are not lemurs and never will be but we share virtually all of our DNA with hominids.
    I'm the first to admit it's a hard sell when faced with logic like this. I got interested in utilizing cold as a tool in recovering from metabolic syndrome. The research on BAT sold me on the idea and the resulting loss of sub-cutaneous fat and quick recovery from heavy lifting firmly entrenched 'cold' in my repertoir.

    I did some extreme stuff with cold last winter; barefoot walks in the snow, lengthy exposure to sub-zero air while minimally clothed, bathing in water as cold as 33 degrees for up to 45 minutes. I had intended to give it all up during our short summer, but still find I'm sneaking in a soak or natural water dip several times a week. When I was in the military, doing military PT stuff, I lived on Extra-Strength Tylenol...4-8 a day. Nowadays, I'm 46 and exercising harder than I ever did in the military, taking no tylenol, using cold baths for recovery. I'm also leaner and weigh less than I did when I was 21, eating SAD and doing chronic cardio. I went cold-turkey with no cold baths for about a month, I was sore and limping--even took a couple tylenol--then decided cold was better.

    Why it works, the science is there: anti-inflammatory, pain deadening, and uncoupling protein-1 activation for burning excess calories as heat and activating BAT. I wish there were a way to quantify the BAT, but the rest is pretty easy to see.

    These guys know it works! Benefits of Ice Baths from Runner's World.com and Ice Baths | Cryotherapy | Cold Water Therapy Equipment* | Cold Tub

  4. #514
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    The anti-inflmammatory and pain deadening properties of cold are obvious as anyone who has ever put an ice pack on a sprained ankle can attest. No argument there.

    Cold forcing the body to expend extra calories to keep warm, OK, I get that too. But there are other ways to burn calories, like exercise.

    It's the protein uncoupling and the BAT stuff where this all starts to sound like Ray Cronise needed a second career after NASA so he became the King of Cold and like Jack Kruse needed "the next big thing" after the leptin reset to write about.

    And, as Grumpycakes said, light on results. The results I have read are all conflated with other variables like changing to a primal diet, starting an exercise program, or wanting to do an additional tweak to the PB to see faster results when in reality the PB may have just needed some time to start working due to healing taking place.

  5. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    But, wait a minute here folks. Humanity evolved in a very temperate climate, equatorial Africa. I now live in a very temperate climate, southern California. It's about 72 degrees all year. I rarely use my heater and don't even have AC. You can grow berries here all year long. I don't feel like I am "out of touch" with any natural cycles if I eat berries whenever and tubers whenever and meat whenever because it all grows here whenever.

    Kruse went paleo/primal and lost a bunch of weight and got healthy. Great. But now he is telling us that these extra tweaks are essential? Tell that to someone like Dave Parsons who just went primal. I think Kruse is adding unnecessary layers of complexity just to make a "brand" that he can sell instead of just saying follow the PB.
    From what I've seen, there is very little evidence to support much of what Kruse claims is essential. He's said it himself he's the only one in the world that he's aware of who is doing what he's doing. Even if it's working great for him that is not a large enough sample size to tell us anything.

    Given the lack of evidence, I'm having a hard time finding fault with eating local, in season, organic fruits and vegetables, even if that means berries in January.

    CT is a pretty interesting tool with a fair amount of supporting studies. I'm enjoying my experiment with it. I'll try to keep the topic back in that area. Please excuse the diversion.

  6. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    It's the protein uncoupling and the BAT stuff where this all starts to sound like Ray Cronise needed a second career after NASA so he became the King of Cold and like Jack Kruse needed "the next big thing" after the leptin reset to write about.
    I just went to google and typed in "BAT UCP-1" and got 11,600 hits. The first on the list: Brown fat thermogenesis in cold-acclimated rats is not abolished by the suppression of thyroid function was written in 2001, this has been studied for decades, but thought to be a non-player for adults. Recent PET Scan studies show it is a major game-player in obesity--that's what I am after. I could care less what Cronise, Kruse, Nickoley, Ferriss, or any other 'guru' says. BAT is not really fat so much as a fat-burning, metabolism controlling organ. Big money being spent right now to exploit BAT with pills vs cold.

  7. #517
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    otzi, are you doing CT after resistance training or before?

    Is anyone other than KA24 doing CT before resistance training?

    I gave it a shot doing CT before resistance training for the first time today. I did have a pretty good work out. Went up in reps in all my exercises, but that is not unprecedented. I'll have to see a lot more before I can say it's turning me into superman.

    One thing I can say about doing a work out right after CT is you warm up right away. I'm not sure if that's really a good thing, as part of the benefit of CT is forcing the body to burn calories to warm up on its own. I look at it as a second work out each day, with out any additional wear and tear on the body. Would not some of this benefit be lost if you warm up from exercise immediately following CT?

  8. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    I just went to google and typed in "BAT UCP-1" and got 11,600 hits. The first on the list: Brown fat thermogenesis in cold-acclimated rats is not abolished by the suppression of thyroid function was written in 2001, this has been studied for decades, but thought to be a non-player for adults. Recent PET Scan studies show it is a major game-player in obesity--that's what I am after. I could care less what Cronise, Kruse, Nickoley, Ferriss, or any other 'guru' says. BAT is not really fat so much as a fat-burning, metabolism controlling organ. Big money being spent right now to exploit BAT with pills vs cold.
    Depending on which expert study you are reading, the number of adult humans who even have detectable amounts of BAT ranges anywhere from 1% to 80%. I'm not saying either end of that disparity is right or wrong, just that there is nothing even close to a scientific consensus yet.

    What if you are one of the apparently many people who have no BAT but are sitting their in your ice tub anyway only freezing your butt off in the figurative and not literal sense?

    For the whole CT thing to have merit (beyond simply burning off calories due to system wide stress) it has to be about the BAT. I am not saying that it is wrong, just that I haven't seen anything yet to convince me to put my tender behind into ice water. Like GC said, an interesting ongoing experiment but light on results.

    I'm sure you're not just blindly following a guru, Jack Kruse or any other. But the people who endorse an idea do have some bearing on the credibility of that idea for me. The fact that Dr. K endorses it makes me more skeptical in the same way that I would be skeptical of any ideas in the latest "Miracle cure that THEY don't want you to know about" book from Kevin Trudeau.

  9. #519
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    So, in the last coupleof weeks my hands and feet have been quite cold. This has never happened to me before.

    Could it be related to taking 'Scotsman showers'? (Or is it more likely to be thyroid related)

  10. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    But, wait a minute here folks. Humanity evolved in a very temperate climate, equatorial Africa. I now live in a very temperate climate, southern California. It's about 72 degrees all year. I rarely use my heater and don't even have AC. You can grow berries here all year long. I don't feel like I am "out of touch" with any natural cycles if I eat berries whenever and tubers whenever and meat whenever because it all grows here whenever.
    I take it more as living in tune with your total environment: light, temperature, & carb intake. If you live in a 24/7 climate controlled place, make sure your carbs & light are at tropic levels (which are actually around 12hrs year-round, never the 15+ most of us get a large portion of the year) (and the carbs are NEVER anywhere the SAD; I'm not sure how they compare to how most primal folks eat who don't try to limit carbs at all). If you're doing cold adaptation for any of its benefits, try to lower your carbs & light some more to whatever natural levels might be.

    And keep in mind that Kruse is saying that paying attention to these things is necessary for those who want to be *optimal* - however one might define that - not for those who just want to feel good, live health, look good, & live a reasonably long life.

    I personally don't know that I'm interested in "optimal." I'll take the guidelines so far as they make sense to me and continue bearing results.
    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    I'd recommend just keep doing what your doing and follow Mark's approach to primal eating. If you get bored, want some tweaks, or have some serious medical conditions you may want to check out Kruse--but Sisson is cool. He even talks about seasonal eating here: Read more: Seasonality, Climate and Diet | Mark's Daily Apple
    Ditto that.

    Keep in mind, also, that Kruse mostly speaks to those who have tried primal and not found all the success they desired - like me. I did "traditional foods" for several years, and primal for over 18 months before some of Kruse's "tweaks" ended my eating disorder / sugar addiction. Many people need nothing more "complex" than mostly avoiding the foods of modern civilization, including grains. I needed something more. I absolutely needed the breakfast timing & size.

    I continued to see more health changes following his tweaks, largely stemming from now being able to stick to being 100% wheat-free (since any little bit was literally, slowly, killing me). 80/20 had been denying me success for a long time.

    So Mark is a great place to start, and a great place to stay, if primal alone works for you. Without a doubt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy Caveman View Post
    This thread seems a little to light on the "results" part.
    Methinks you haven't read through much? There have been many tales of results. Some confounded, some not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    The results I have read are all conflated with other variables like changing to a primal diet, starting an exercise program, or wanting to do an additional tweak to the PB to see faster results when in reality the PB may have just needed some time to start working due to healing taking place.
    I changed nothing else when I started CT. My increased cold tolerance is nothing short of amazing, energy is gradually increasing for the first time in 6 years, and belly fat shredded rapidly after I began spot-icing there, when nothing else had been able to do that since I gained it years ago. As I mentioned, by the time I started CT, I had been primal exactly as Mark described it (and far more compliant than 80/20) for two years.
    5'4" 36yo mother to five sweeties & married to their AMAZING DaddyGrok
    Starting: 185 lbs (March '10)
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    Beating bingeing since 10/31/11 on my Leptin Reset journey

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