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Thread: Warning against Ketogenic diets during pregnancy page 7

  1. #61
    Omni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
    I didn't conclude that none of them were in ketosis during pregnancy, my conclusion was that we DON'T KNOW if whole cultures spent pregnancies in ketosis or not. So assumptions that they were, and that therefore ketosis during pregnancy is without risks is the leap in logic being taken. In fact I'm positive that there's been many pregnancies spent in ketosis, but is certainly doesn't prove that it is without potential risks. And the fact that some cultures ate up to 85% of calories from animal foods doesn't tell us what the pregnant woman in the tribe were eating. Some hunter gather tribes have different diets catered for the women during pregnancy. It's possible diets provided for the pregnant women were a lot different in macro make-up compared to what the rest of the tribe were eating.
    In fact there's also evidence that some hunter gatherer societies increased carbs and even placed restrictions on protein and fat for women during pregnancy.
    A review: dietary restrictions on hunter-gatherer w... [Hum Ecol. 1989] - PubMed - NCBI
    Read the link, may have started to point to something until they elaborated that it was nutritional restriction that delayed puberty and reduced fertility, there was no specific mention of increasing carbohydrates that I read, it was malnutrition they were talking about. Looked at some other similar ones which also talked about the whole reduced fertility thing in malnutrition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
    Where's the evidence that pregnant Inuits are in ketosis? A study done on them found they had a greater degree of resistance to ketosis. Not only did they consume glycogen from fresh meat but they were found to be extremely efficient at gluconeogensis and were even more resistant to ketosis than normal people, even during total starvation.
    www.jbc.org/content/80/2/461.full.pdf
    Interesting, but published in 1928, mould on tested samples that were in storage for months, other design problems as well, but never the less still interesting. Does not conclusively prove they were or not in ketosis, interesting comment about the high protein diet and normal blood nitrogen, whereas everyone else has said the Eskimo's had a high fat diet that is a significant contradiction which needs to be resolved, also population of study, 4 looks like one family.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
    So basically we have no evidence that ketogenic diets during pregnancy are without risk, we also have:

    - no proof that pregnant women in cultures are in ketosis during pregnancy
    - Hunter gather societies that actually make sure pregnant women eat more carbs during pregnancy
    - Micheal Eades, one of the biggest "ketosis is natural and beneficial" advocates, saying that ketosis during pregnancy can be harmful to babies
    - The vast majority of keto and low carb advocates saying that ketosis is not safe during pregnancy
    - Another low carb advocate and pediatrician who has actually read the literature and concluded that it's not safe
    - A biological breakdown of why it can be dangerous
    - Animal studies showing that ketosis can be harmful to fetal development.
    Back to the same asumptions,
    Where are the studies that show this, great you have listed a couple of authorities, just because they are low carbers doesn't make them right, all the points you mention are opinion or hypothesis unles you can present the data that proves it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
    ..Yet we still have people believing that it's worth the risk with their unborn child. I find that just bizarre that people would choose to take unnecessary risks.
    Back to the Drama again,
    I have not advocated a Ketogenic diet,
    But from the evidence that I have seen presented I do not think it would likely be a problem, but I would like to know more if there is more to know.
    On balance if you are planning pregnancy then go the safest bet with a well rounded Primal diet, I agree there is no substantial evidence to say a Ketogenic diet is safe in Pregnancy in all circumstances, but likewise for the counter argument.

    So let's just have the discussion without fingering individuals as "Baby Killers" to support your own opinion.
    Last edited by Omni; 09-29-2012 at 06:14 AM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by activia View Post
    So very low carb diets will cause you to have very low blood sugar, which is what is causing what I said before. So he is saying that its key to keep your blood sugar at a "middle" ground. So you want at least 50-100g during pregnancy. To keep you out of ketosis.
    This is not logical. You can have totally normal blood sugar levels on a very low or zero carbohydrate diet. What is reduced is blood insulin levels, not blood sugar. You only ever have about a teaspoon of sugar in your blood at any time no matter what you eat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    Read the link, may have started to point to something until they elaborated that it was nutritional restriction that delayed puberty and reduced fertility, there was no specific mention of increasing carbohydrates that I read, it was malnutrition they were talking about. Looked at some other similar ones which also talked about the whole reduced fertility thing in malnutrition.
    Did you miss "aboriginal societies restrict protein and fat foods for pregnant and lactating women"? Unless they starved the women then carbs increased if protein and fat was restricted.
    And Cordain says pregnant hunter gathers limited protein yet increased both fat and carbohydrate due to increase calorie and glucose needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post

    Interesting, but published in 1928, mould on tested samples that were in storage for months, other design problems as well, but never the less still interesting. Does not conclusively prove they were or not in ketosis, interesting comment about the high protein diet and normal blood nitrogen, whereas everyone else has said the Eskimo's had a high fat diet that is a significant contradiction which needs to be resolved, also population of study, 4 looks like one family.
    My assumption wasn't that they are definitely not in ketosis, the burdon of proof is people using the default position that the Inuit are always in ketosis, something I have seen expressed as fact many times without evidence. In fact that seems to be the number one reasoning why ketogenic diets during pregnancy are perfectly safe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post

    Back to the same asumptions,
    Where are the studies that show this, great you have listed a couple of authorities, just because they are low carbers doesn't make them right, all the points you mention are opinion or hypothesis unles you can present the data that proves it.
    Given that there's no proof that they are without risk or that a keto diet is preferred or undertaken by any cultures during pregnancy, that all besides a fringe few believe that it's a bad idea including advocates of ketosis, that glucose needs are increased during pregnancy and animal studies show the adverse effects: the burdon of proof is on people who are assuming that a fairly extreme diet is perfectly fine during pregnancy. The assumptions being made are that low-carb societies practice ketogenic diets during pregnancy therefore it's safe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    I did think about the ancient Mongol empire.
    Their traditional diet was meat and fermented dairy and the other northern peoples like Inuit were probably related to them as Mongolia was on the likely migration path to the America's.

    As far as I could determine dairy formed a significant part of their diet in summer, but in winter they were nearly carnivore's, they did use a little bit of wild onion, garlic and some other herbs, but there were no real fruits, starchy tubers etc.
    They ruled the biggest empire in history, basically the story goes that the Khan decreed they should concour all the lands to the west until they got to the sea and when they were conquering they only stopped at Poland because word got through that the Khan had died and they had to get new orders, they then retreated to Russia and held that for nearly 300 years I think, this is the only recorded time that a caucasian population had an Asian aristocracy, but I digress.

    There are records in history about their meat eating and europeans were disgusted by them, bit of "Penis Envy" I think, they referred to the Chinese as "Grass Eaters" because vegetables were so foreign to them. So here is a population that was in Ketosis more often than not and I don't think they would have been able to achieve what they did if all their offspring were weak and sickly because women were in Ketosis.
    Now THAT is an assumption.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    Back to the Drama again,
    I have not advocated a Ketogenic diet,
    But from the evidence that I have seen presented I do not think it would likely be a problem, but I would like to know more if there is more to know.
    On balance if you are planning pregnancy then go the safest bet with a well rounded Primal diet, I agree there is no substantial evidence to say a Ketogenic diet is safe in Pregnancy in all circumstances, but likewise for the counter argument.

    So let's just have the discussion without fingering individuals as "Baby Killers" to support your own opinion.
    I have never said it's going to definitely damage your unborn baby, only that all signs point to the fact that it certainly could which makes it what basically everyone would consider a unnecessary risk.
    Last edited by Forgotmylastusername; 09-29-2012 at 08:04 PM.

  4. #64
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    I wouldn't quote Loren Cordain. hes got some wacko health beliefs
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  5. #65
    Omni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
    Did you miss "aboriginal societies restrict protein and fat foods for pregnant and lactating women"? Unless they starved the women then carbs increased if protein and fat was restricted.
    And Cordain says pregnant hunter gathers limited protein yet increased both fat and carbohydrate due to increase calorie and glucose needs.
    I re read the link again and no mention of carbohydrates, and yes the authors are infering that that particular custom is starving their women. It may be a custom, but it does not appear to be to support nutrition, but more a case of gender heirarchy where young women are at the bottom and get last offerings of food, hardly a support structure for foetal nutrition.
    I haven't seen what Cordain wrote and the context of his comments so I can't comment on that.

    So overall there is no strong evidence neither one way nor the other to say that Ketosis is or isn't harmful to the foetus and/or nursing infant.

  6. #66
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    Good heavens there are some very strong beliefs here. I appreciate all of the info and don't think I'm quite ready to dig in as far as you all have. Thanks for providing your inputs, as a (hopefully) soon be be conceiving woman I appreciate it. I have no reason to go ultra low carb but I'll keep all this in mind.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiesue View Post
    Hi,
    I just googled, and found this page Ketogenic Diet For Pregnancy | LIVESTRONG.COM
    It only mentions diabetic ketoacidosis, and says "No studies have specifically tested the effects of ketosis during pregnancy" This article was dated July 14, 2011
    Livestrong is not really a reliable source. The writers are SEO content writers. Livestrong writers probably have some experience/background in health and fitness, but they're really not a reliable source of information. I know because I used to work for a company that wrote articles for Livestrong.

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