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Thread: Sugar Isn't The Problem. You're The Problem.

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  1. #1
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    Sugar Isn't The Problem. You're The Problem.

    I'm in a bad mood. Hell, I'm downright pissed right now. I can't take the carbohydrate hatred anymore. I'm making a bold statement.

    NO ONE IS BORN INTOLERANT TO CARBOHYDRATE. CARBOHYDRATE IS NEVER THE PROBLEM. YOU'RE THE PROBLEM!

    I do not believe Type II Diabetes is caused by carbohydrate. At all.

    Fructose isn't poisonous. You aren't going to die by eating natural sources of fructose. Do you want fruit? Then eat a piece of fruit.

    Very low carbohydrate diets are counterproductive for virtually everyone. Where did this '50g of carbohydrate' number come from? It doesn't exist. How can you call yourself Primal and then adhere to an arbitrary number? Do you think Grok knew how many carbohydrates were in an apple, and how much of that sugar was evil, poisonous fructose? Puh-leez.

    So what's causing all the diseases of society? In my opinion, hormonal imbalance caused mainly by - FAT!

    I believe that the biggest killer of society is fat. Oh, but not all fat. Most fats are absolutely essential and healthy. It's omega 6 polyunsaturated fat causing nearly all of our diseases. It's worse for you than sugar. It's worse for you than grains. It's even worse for you than *gasp* gluten. Next time you're at a bar and remove the bun from your burger but eat those chicken wings deep fried in soybean oil, maybe you're actually eating the greater of two evils (minus the celiacs, of course!).

    Here's what I believe are the primary causes of Type II Diabetes:

    1.) Soy. Absolutely soy. Soy is the worst thing to ever happen to the world. I'll explain why later.

    2.) Omega 6 polyunsaturated fat. All of them.

    3.) Toxin accumulation from all sources - grains, legumes and to a lesser extent, nuts.

    4.) Snacking. There is a huge difference between eating 300g of carbs in one or two sittings and eating that in 5 to 6 sittings. Spiking blood glucose isn't necessarily unhealthy, but chronically elevated blood glucose from constant snacking is extremely unhealthy and will lead to insulin resistance. Again, it's not the fault of the carbohydrate, it's YOUR fault for treating your mouth like a vacuum.

    I believe that these diseases of society - heart attack, Type II Diabetes, stroke, cancer, etc - build up from chronic inflammation and chronic hormonal imbalance. In my opinion, it comes down to three big players:

    1.) Chronic systemic inflammation
    2.) Elevated estrogen/suppressed testosterone
    3.) Elevated cortisol

    Soy elevates levels of estrogen through the roof, is highly inflammatory and elevates cortisol. This causes everything from insulin resistance to breast/ovarian cancer to man boobs to the phenomenon of 13 year old girls looking like 19 year olds to male pattern baldness. It is worse for you than wheat. Stay the hell away from soy.

    Omega 6 polyunsaturated fats leave you in a constant state of inflammation. They are essential, yes, but should be limited to less than 3g a day. TOTAL.

    These things, along with chronic stress from every day life, leave cortisol levels constantly elevated. Cortisol is the stress hormone, and when it is elevated, it is destroying your body. This will make you hold onto fat, it will make your hair fall out, it will ruin your mood and destroy your sex drive.

    Notice how sugar is not on my list of "evil" things. I'm going to make a bold statement. Sugar is the ultimate test for your metabolic health. WHAT? What does that MEAN? Exactly that - if you can process a high level of sugar without crashing, you're probably in great metabolic health. I'm going to create something right now. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you:

    The Sugar Test

    Consume 100g of isolated sucrose.

    That's it. That's the sugar test. Ah, but it's not that easy! You must also consume the sugar in the presence of very little fat. We don't want to blunt the insulin response. We want a big reaction. In addition, we want to do it on a day we've been pretty sedentary. Anyone can handle 100g of sugar after a deadlift session. Yesterday was my deadlift day and I ate 300g of carbohydrate immediately post workout. I had so much energy I couldn't fall asleep til 1am, so don't even think of doing it after coming home from the gym. No, I want you to sit on your ass in the office all day, come home and eat an entire pint of Ben & Jerry's Cherry Garcia frozen yogurt (because it's delicious, loaded with sugar, has no wheat or soy outside of lechithin, is very low fat and has next to no fiber - it's a pure sugar rush). If you don't have a sugar crash, you have a healthy metabolism! If you crash, you have some work ahead of you - and be aware that the lower you drop your carbs, the worse you will handle carbs. I recommend cycling your carbs - eat a day under 100g, then a day in the 200-300g range. You'll average around 150g, which is still very low per American standards, but it's plenty to keep your liver partially replete with glycogen at all times and therefore in a constant state of insulin sensitivity. LOW CARBOHYDRATE DIETS MAKE YOU INSULIN RESISTANT!!! Eating like this is the ultimate compromise - you are an efficient fat burner and an insulin-sensitive sugar burner. Metabolic flexibility for the win!

    Now, this is not an endorsement to eat sugar by the boatload. Processed sucrose is still junk, and don't even get me started on the poisons of isolated fructose and garbage like agave syrup and boiled honey. The problem is when people start a war against whole fruit, raw honey, organic maple syrup and blackstrap molasses and label them as poison. I wouldn't recommend raw honey, organic maple syrup and blackstrap molasses be used liberally, but they're not poisonous, and there is just no reason at all to avoid whole fruit as long as it fits into your daily caloric intake. It's not going to hurt you. Whole fructose, sucrose and starch, paired with all the natural enzymes and minerals that come with it, isn't unhealthy assuming you aren't constantly overeating your caloric needs, you haven't destroyed your metabolism with inflammatory fats/phytoestrogens/laboratory chemicals/snacking and you aren't eating artificial sweeteners/other laboratory chemical "foods".

    There may be a lot of you that instantly dismiss this. Consider this: it takes up to four years to remove excess omega 6 polyunsaturated fat from your system. If you're coming from the SAD eating high levels of omega 6 and now you're eating high levels of saturated fats, moderate levels of monounsaturated fats and low levels of omega 6, it will take up to four years to reconstruct your cell tissues to reflect this dietary change. That means you could be a staunch Primal veteran for the past two or three years and still be experiencing effects of high levels of PUFA's being expelled from your tissues to this day, impacting your ability to metabolize carbohydrate properly. Don't dismiss this. This is my challenge to you. Will you pass the sugar test?
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 02-07-2012 at 11:31 AM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  2. #2
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    Ever been fat, Choco? Ever consider people that don't live constantly surrounded by the smell of their own workout sweat? Ever been north of 30 years old?

    Because it sure looks like you're projecting a lot of n=1 anecdotes about the subject, from the perspective of a fitness obsessed and young person. Just sayin'.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Croak View Post
    Ever been fat, Choco? Ever consider people that don't live constantly surrounded by the smell of their own workout sweat? Ever been north of 30 years old?

    Because it sure looks like you're projecting a lot of n=1 anecdotes about the subject, from the perspective of a fitness obsessed and young person. Just sayin'.
    This...

    What about people who AREN'T you? People who are much older, have really damaged metabolisms, have legitimate medical issues that prevent hard core gym workouts (sprinting and LHT)... not every one is YOU, not everyone can eat what you eat and be successful. Not everyone can even eat that "Cherry Garcia" ... some people will spend the next 24hours miserable and needing to never be more than 5 steps from a toilet!

    That said I don't tend to all out vilify things (except for highly processed packaged products... there isn't any thing good inside that wrapper EVER IMO)... refined sugar: I might have a bit now and then, special occasion splurges and whatnot, fructose: I eat some fruit, it doesn't scare me but I don't eat several servings every day more like a few a week, dairy: well it makes me sick (lactose intolerance) YMMV and all that, but I also just found out that RAW milk doesn't make me sick so dairy and I are friends again, wheat: don't need it, don't want it.... and so on and so forth.

    HOWEVER, I never assume that other people will have my same tolerances, metabolism, or diet needs. And, honestly, you probably shouldn't either... until you actually BEEN an overweight, metabolically challenged, about 40yr old woman with the insane hormone issues that go with that, who is physically limited due to real medical reasons that are ongoing and chronic since the age of about 25...

    The truth is you could probably help a lot of people... if you didn't come across as such a loud mouthed kid who knows EVERYTHING, and how it WILL work for everyone no matter what their issues are, due to his own n=1 experience in a LOW BF% 24yo male body that is super healthy and strong.

    Great YOU eat a kilo of sweet potatoes 3x a week ... if I eat more than half of a medium one with a meal I feel like I've had enough, if I ate a whole one I'd feel bloated and awful, if I tried for a second one I'm pretty sure I'd freaking puke. I eat a half sweet potato with a chopped medjool date in it about 1x per week, maybe 2.
    Your n=1 =/= the n=1 of every other person. Period.

    Different people at different stages of life and metabolism have DIFFERENT needs. Some people need lower carb amounts... some, like you, can eat lots! Hell... when I was in my early 20's I could eat whatever the fuck I wanted, when ever I wanted, and not gain an ounce. That part of my life is over... that part of my life ended when I was diagnosed with a chronic degenerative disease at 25.

    Your OPINION is NOT my REALITY....
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    This...

    What about people who AREN'T you? People who are much older, have really damaged metabolisms
    And right there your argument is instantly disregarded.

    Did you not read my post? People with damaged metabolisms don't count. They damaged their metabolisms eating rancid fat, grain toxins, phytoestrogens and therefore living in a constant state of inflammation and hormonal imbalance. THIS IS NOT CAUSED BY CARBOHYDRATE. The reason why I can do things like eat a pint of Cherry Garcia with no problems is because I didn't ruin myself eating chicken wings deep fried in soybean oil and washing it down with a Diet Coke. That's never been my game, and because of this, I will never get metabolic syndrome no matter how many carbs I eat. And the reason? The fats I eat are mostly saturated and the carbs I eat come from real food, like potatoes and fruit. Again, I eat several kilos of potatoes, applies and berries a week, and it's a good thing I did because I needed them to lose the fat my body was clinging to back when I thought insulin was bad.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    And right there your argument is instantly disregarded.

    Did you not read my post? People with damaged metabolisms don't count. They damaged their metabolisms eating rancid fat, grain toxins, phytoestrogens and therefore living in a constant state of inflammation and hormonal imbalance. THIS IS NOT CAUSED BY CARBOHYDRATE. The reason why I can do things like eat a pint of Cherry Garcia with no problems is because I didn't ruin myself eating chicken wings deep fried in soybean oil and washing it down with a Diet Coke. That's never been my game, and because of this, I will never get metabolic syndrome no matter how many carbs I eat. And the reason? The fats I eat are mostly saturated and the carbs I eat come from real food, like potatoes and fruit. Again, I eat several kilos of potatoes, applies and berries a week, and it's a good thing I did because I needed them to lose the fat my body was clinging to back when I thought insulin was bad.
    Actually the reason you can eat Cherry Garcia and I can't is because you are not lactose intolerant. I am. LOL
    And because you are very, very active. Some have real limitations, medical conditions that are permanent, that preclude what you do to allow the amounts of carbs you eat... and the nasty ice cream too. And others simply have not yet, and may never, work back up to the level of activity that you are currently at.
    If I had something like PB in my 20's there is a good chance I wouldn't be in as bad of shape as I am now... neither would the rest of the people here seeking healing. You got lucky, you haven't damaged your metabolism, and you haven't developed a condition(s) that prevents your vigorous fitness routines... remember that and don't dismiss those of us who are not living your reality.

    Once again... what works for you, isn't what is necessary or what WILL work for every person because people have individual needs based on their own histories, tolerances, and intolerances. You can, of course, choose to ignore that as you seem so adept at doing by simply insisting that you are the only person here who could possible be correct or know the needs of another person despite their own experiences. And by doing that continue to sound like a pompous jerk because people with damaged metabolisms likely make up the majority of the members of this forum, but they "don't count"? I propose the opposite... I've seen guys your age who appear incredible fit, strong,and LOW BF% who eat CRAP... basically a healthy person your age could eat SAD and be in great shape... I've SEEN it... ripped, shredded, six pack displaying pizza/junk eaters. The wonderful thing about how the diet works as in PB (as low as 50grams of carbs a day) is because it heals those of us who are broken, not because it allows an already fit guy to get ripped.

    And I really try to give you the credit that if you were simply not so pushy and arrogant you could probably help people here... instead you seem to really want to alienate them by pushing YOUR way as the only. Your tone tends to be quite aggressive. Sad really.

    Also I really can't figure out why you are ranting.... I see VERY few posts on this board about people seeking to consume under the 50g/day of carbs and do VLC, and many of them seem to want to do it as a short term reset. A small FEW have found that that is where they are personally most comfortable. I think it's a personal decision, just like your decision to eat a shit load of sweet potatoes 3x/wk... and amount that I literally could not fit inside my stomach without getting ill and vomiting.

    And, yes not every person handles mass amounts of carbs as easily as you do... to say that every person has the ability to process the same amount of carb in the same way with the same result is like saying that they all have identical metabolisms. And that is "patently false".

    Insisting that your way is the only way isn't going to help people, yet you say that is your intention.
    Last edited by cori93437; 02-07-2012 at 10:24 PM.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    Actually the reason you can eat Cherry Garcia and I can't is because you are not lactose intolerant. I am. LOL
    But that has nothing to do with carbohydrate. Lactose intolerance is a funny thing. For example, it intensifies in the absence of sugar in your diet. Pre-Primal, I had no issues with lactose. Now, when I drink milk I turn into a human crop duster. Care to try an experiment? Take a glass of milk and mix in an entire tablespoon of raw honey. I wonder if you'll still have issues with the lactose. The natural enzymes and significant quantity of sugar should help you digest the lactose, at least in theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    And because you are very, very active. Some have real limitations, medical conditions that are permanent, that preclude what you do to allow the amounts of carbs you eat... and the nasty ice cream too. And others simply have not yet, and may never, work back up to the level of activity that you are currently at.
    Again, the medical conditions that are making them intolerant to carbs have nothing to do with carbs. Drinking homogenized milk for prolonged periods makes me allergic to cats and dogs. It's not the cats and dogs that are the issue, it's that I'm sensitive to homogenized milk. For these people, it's not the carbs that are the problem. Other factors have damaged their metabolism, and carbs are simply collateral damage. You're blaming the victim for the crime. Unless they were born Type I Diabetics, they have no one to blame but themselves for a carbohydrate intolerance. They weren't born with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    If I had something like PB in my 20's there is a good chance I wouldn't be in as bad of shape as I am now... neither would the rest of the people here seeking healing. You got lucky, you haven't damaged your metabolism, and you haven't become developed a condition that prevents your vigorous fitness routines... remember that and don't dismiss those of us who are not living your reality.
    And I'm very glad I found it when I did. Because of this, I'll be able to eat plenty of carbs my entire life with no negative consequences. It's individual foods that are toxic, not macronutrients. You need to understand that carb intolerance is a side effect of inflammation and hormone imbalance. It's not a condition you're born with. We could ALL handle carbs just fine if we had properly functioning metabolisms.

    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    Once again... what works for you, isn't what is necessary or what WILL work for every person because people have individual needs based on their own histories, tolerances, and intolerances. You can, of course. choose to ignore that as you seem so adept at doing by simply insisting that you are the only person here who could possible be correct or know the needs of another person despite their own experiences. And by doing that continue to sound like a pompous jerk because people with damaged metabolisms likely make up the majority of the members of this forum, but they "don't count"? I propose the opposite... I've seen guys your age who appear incredible fit, strong,and LOW BF% who eat CRAP... basically a healthy person your age could eat SAD and be in great shape... I've SEEN it... ripped, shredded, six pack displaying pizza/junk eaters. The wonderful thing about how the diet works as in PB (as low as 50grams of carbs a day) is because it heals those of us who are broken, not because it allows an already fit guy to get ripped.
    I don't care if I "sound like a pompous jerk". The fact is, you still don't understand what I'm saying. THIS WILL WORK FOR EVERYONE - assuming you were born with a properly functioning metabolism. And nearly every single one of us were born with a properly functioning metabolism. If it no longer functions properly, it's because you ruined it with toxic foods, not with carbohydrate. THAT is your disconnect. Carbs are not the villain but the victim. You are blaming the victim for the crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    And I really try to give you the credit that if you were simply not so pushy and arrogant you could probably help people here... instead you seem to really want to alienate them by pushing YOUR way as the only. Your tone tends to be quite aggressive. Sad really.
    Read. The. Post. You're not getting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    Also I really can't figure out why you are ranting.... I see VERY few posts on this board about people seeking to consume under the 50g/day of carbs and do VLC, and many of them seem to want to do it as a short term reset. A small FEW have found that that is where they are personally most comfortable. I think it's a personal decision, just like your decision to eat a shit load of sweet potatoes 3x/wk... and amount that I literally could not fit inside my stomach without getting ill and vomiting.
    Three kilos of sweet potatoes a week is not a lot. Simply displace fibrous vegetables for more starch. Your body was designed to digest much more starch than it was designed to digest leafy greens and other fibrous vegetables. Your gut isn't designed to eat lots of vegetation. It builds up, ferments, causes gas and bloating and hampers your intestine's ability to absorb nutrition. Starch and fruit won't cause this because it's low fiber, yet it provides lots of energy. Vegetables don't produce much in the way of energy, most of the nutrition is bound up in indigestible compounds and it's bad for your gut. You're better off eating organ means and starch than muscle meat and vegetables.

    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    And, yes not every person handles mass amounts of carbs as easily as you do... to say that every person has the ability to process the same amount of cab in the same way with the same result is like saying that they all have identical metabolisms. And that is "patently false".
    I never said this. I said every person was BORN to handle the same amount of carbs in the same way that I do. If you can't, it's your own doing. Take responsibility for your actions so you can recover your metabolism and regain your insulin sensitivity. Going low carb is only the first step towards fixing a broken metabolism. If you don't slowly start to add carbohydrate again after you stabilize your fasting blood glucose levels and heal your gut, you will never fully recover your insulin sensitivity and metabolic flexibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    Insisting that your way is the only way isn't going to help people, yet you say that is your intention.
    Remove the preconceived notions, open your mind and actually listen to what I'm saying. You're so militant in your stance against carbohydrate that you have misconstrued every single thing that I've said. You haven't comprehended a single thing. If you don't open your mind to positions that do not fall in line with yours, you will never get the full story and you'll never fully achieve your goals. I used to be a carb Nazi, too, back when I was chubby and weak. I've come a long way since my low-carb days, which I adhered to for about a year. I just wish I knew back then what I know now.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 02-07-2012 at 10:37 PM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    People with damaged metabolisms don't count. They damaged their metabolisms eating rancid fat, grain toxins, phytoestrogens and therefore living in a constant state of inflammation and hormonal imbalance.
    So... who are you ranting to?
    The other perfect specimens of humanity who popped out of the womb into a land of abundant purity? Yay for them. I'm glad they can eat whatever they like within the realms of the pointy stick hypothesis.

    I'll just take my metabolically deranged self over to the corner then shall I? You're dismissing a *lot* of people here and I'm not sure why.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernMonkeyGirl View Post
    So... who are you ranting to?
    The other perfect specimens of humanity who popped out of the womb into a land of abundant purity? Yay for them. I'm glad they can eat whatever they like within the realms of the pointy stick hypothesis.

    I'll just take my metabolically deranged self over to the corner then shall I? You're dismissing a *lot* of people here and I'm not sure why.
    Good job exaggerating and missing an otherwise good point.He's not saying eat whatever you want,nor is he dismissing people out of spite,he's simply saying that low carb isn't always the answer to a health problem or the key to long term health.He's mainly addressing people that have healed a lot of the damage they've done yet still stick to the low carb dogma and end up running into problems,which happens much more often then most low carb people would care to admit.It's been said numerous times in this thread that if you've damaged your body and your metabolism is a mess then low carb is a great way to lose weight and repair the damage,but once the damage is repaired and the person is healthy and active the carb paranoia needs to stop.I've actually seen people being paranoid over a single apple on this forum.....an apple,on Mark's daily apple,if you don't see a problem with that line of thinking then there isn't much to say.It's all this low carb dogma and fear of a macro-nutrient that gets paleo thrown in with fad diets and wackjobs.Once an average person is healthy there's no reason for them to avoid carbs to the extent that some people suggest in the paleo community,because carbs from a healthy source are perfectly fine and humans have thrived on them for literally millions of years.

    Also,believe it or not,some people don't see magical results when they go low carb,and if nobody in the community explains why we need to stop vilifying carbs the people that do poorly on the one recommendation that's spammed mindlessly at them are bound to become confused and lose hope,or worst yet keep plowing forward on a diet that their body is telling them isn't right for them.

    Paleo is not low carb,it's low toxin,and that distinction absolutely needs to be made for the betterment of everyone involved.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernMonkeyGirl View Post
    So... who are you ranting to?
    The other perfect specimens of humanity who popped out of the womb into a land of abundant purity? Yay for them. I'm glad they can eat whatever they like within the realms of the pointy stick hypothesis.

    I'll just take my metabolically deranged self over to the corner then shall I? You're dismissing a *lot* of people here and I'm not sure why.
    You're not getting it. Metabolic damage is not caused by carbohydrate. It's caused by omega 6, grain/legume toxins, artificial chemicals and the ensuing hormonal imbalance and systemic inflammation that results from these poisons. You could be eating 300-400g of carbs a day every day and as long as your caloric intake is appropriate, you're not going to become metabolically deranged assuming those carbs are coming from real food - fruit, potatoes, tapioca, parsnips, white rice and other real, healthy carbohydrate sources.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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    Egh, I feel your content is misaligned Choco. I feel it would be better to address why sugar/carbs aren't intrinsically bad, than making grander claims about fat and overall health.

    The carbs/sugar hate on here is quite tiring and I bang my head every time I see a newbie asking "I'm low carb, why amen't I losing weight?" or "Sugar is bad because its nutritionally empty, BTW STUFF YOUR FACE WITH FAT! ". Its completely stupid and dogmatic and reeks of cults like veganism or fruitarians.
    Last edited by AMonkey; 10-02-2013 at 08:05 PM.

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