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  1. #471
    wiltondeportes's Avatar
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    This whole "women used to be weak" thing still has me snickering.

    My ancestors' town was trashed by Quantrill's Raiders during the Lawrence (Kansas) Massacre back in 1863. I will admit that most of the dead were men. But if you read reports from way back then (and not the sanitized recent versions) you see that most of the male survivors in the town hid in the basements and attics. Meanwhile, the women got out their brooms and shovels and just beat the crap out of Quantrill's men. Maybe not the most effective combat strategy, but it shows their mindset.

    On a farm, there's no "men's work and women's work". There's just "work that needs to be done or we don't eat", so work gets done without much regard to gender.

    And saying women didn't have much documented business success (and therefore they must suck at it) is hilarious too. Assuming they were able to get into any schools (which they weren't) and that anyone would give them a job (which they wouldn't) and that they could have networked at the clubs the businessmen frequented (which they were banned from), they still would have had an incredibly difficult time getting anyone to take the accomplishments of a woman seriously.
    -Farm work is tedious, but I wouldn't consider it always demanding. You have from sun up till sun down to do tasks that generally don't require lifting more than 50 pounds. The most demanding work is still mostly done by men.

    -Business success is not determined by university attendance. The best business people out there never went to school past high school.

    -All I see are excuses! 6,000 years of written history. Where are the women successes despite these excuses. You would think there would some. Women can name Cleopatra, but what did she ever accomplish? She ruled for 21 years and then lost Egypt to Rome becoming the final Egyptian pharaoh. Sure, there are other queens too. But which people in history invented things like the steam engine, the printing press, our very own democratic republic? Men.

  2. #472
    magicmerl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott F View Post
    Question: Are gender roles socially imprinted or are they genetically imprinted by millions of years of evolution?
    I think it's both. My brother is a house husband while his wife is a high powered lawyer. I would have been happy to do the same if my wife's earning capacity was anything close to mine. I would ascribe that to the way that our mother raised us. Similarly, I have three children, two girls and a boy. With the girls I tried to get them to use a wooden spoon and a pot as a drum when they were about 1. Both promptly turned it over and used it for 'cooking'. My son didn't need to be taught anything. He *knew* that a wooden spoon was a drumstick for an overturned drum.

    So there's definitely aspects of what we think are 'masculine' and 'feminine' that are biologically driven, and there's also aspects that are culturally driven (and subject to change).

    I definitely do think that there's a biological basis for women being the primary caregiver. Plus logistically, they hit the ground running with breastfeeding and never look back in terms of child-bonding.

    @wiltondeportes: I think I disagree with nearly everything you have said in this thread, if not on a factual sentence by sentence basis, at least in terms of the overall thrust of your arguement.

    I watched a documentary a while back that posited that essentially the underlying difference between human and chimp culture was that chimp culture WAS still ruled by the biggest, strongest, most violent male. Whereas human society evolved as a 'coalition of the week' where social groups combined to expel the strongest men who could otherwise dominate all the others in the group individually. We have such big brains because our species has to navigate the most complex social networks in the animal kingdom.

    It seems like that's the exact opposite of what you are saying here.
    Look at what America used to be before feminism.
    Please. Looks like you've been drinking too much kool-ade. America has long been the strongest country militarily and economically. But to doesn't mean America is 'better' than the rest of the world, unless having the biggest gun or writing the biggest cheque makes you a better man.

    On a farm, there's no "men's work and women's work".
    Exactly. I'm much stronger than my wife, so I tend to do the jobs that take the most strength, since it's more efficient for me to do them. But there's no reason why my wife couldn't do them if she was so inclined.

    I remember reading a story a while back about an american woman who went to I think it was Sweden about a hundred years ago. She wanted to introduce some culture, so she organised a local beauty pageant, to be judged by the men of the village. The woman who won was not conventionally beautiful. The american asked one of the men why he voted for the winner, and his answer was "She can carry a pig under each arm. Who wouldn't want to be married to her?" (note: anecdote paraphrased, so some or all details my be slightly off)

    We live in a screwed up culture with a screwed up idea of beauty, both for men and women. Some of the young men on this board seem to be having some trouble conflating their cultural background of how women can and should behave with universal truths of how women can and should behave.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    -All I see are excuses!
    By the same logic, we should eat bread too. Because that was regarded as a good thing to do throughout recorded human history.
    Last edited by magicmerl; 11-13-2012 at 04:56 PM.
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  3. #473
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    But which people in history invented things like the steam engine, the printing press, our very own democratic republic? Men.
    So..... are you saying because women are allowed to get educated and step out of the house roles, that men can no longer invent shit?

  4. #474
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    -So what is this incredible support system required for this lady to just pursue a scientific degree? Do you realize that there are men pursuing scientific degrees everyday without any support system at all?
    A lot of women get scientific degrees with no support system.

    Things haven't gotten worse for men because there are more opportunities for women.

  5. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    Lots of ladies have patted you on the back for your tremendous white knighting here. I'm not buying it. You sound like a male that hasn't been able to gain a great deal of power and freedom in your life, so you try to explain to others that you nor any other male deserves any of it.
    Yeah, but here's the thing... isn't the greatest power of all the ability to continue the line? You know, spread the seed and see your offspring thrive and reproduce?

    Guess which attitude gets you laid on a regular basis by intelligent, strong women. The same kind of woman that would go all "mama bear" on the ass of anyone that would mess with her cubs, and would assure their success in the world. Not the kind of woman that sees herself as a waste of oxygen and has lost the will to fight, for herself or her babies.

    I do believe survival of the gene and thriving progeny are the ultimate displays of "power", don't you think?
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  6. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    First of all, you don't know a thing about war. Let's stop that discussion because it's going to take way too long, and I want to do this one at a time.
    What do you know about war? Please enlighten us...

    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    My beliefs are not like the Middle East. Look at what America used to be before feminism.
    You mean back when average women couldn't get a job higher than secretary, in any company? And were basically considered eye candy and sex toys for the executives? When women often couldn't get divorces, even from men who were regularly beating them senseless? When black people were "permitted" to work the elevators and scrub floors in office buildings and not much else?

    Yeah, those pre-feminist, pre-civil-rights days sure were glorious.

    My father in law worked in Manhattan in the 60s. He's seen Mad Men, and by his memory they're depicting the corporate work environment and social mores pretty accurately. If you're a decent human being it should horrify you to see what insane amounts of discrimination and outright abuse women and people of color had to put up with daily, as a matter of course, only 50 years ago. You are making the mistake of believing that because you don't see the problem in your day-to-life in 2012, that it wasn't pervasive within living memory and isn't still a big problem some places. You weren't there. You are talking out of your ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    -All I see are excuses! 6,000 years of written history. Where are the women successes despite these excuses. You would think there would some. Women can name Cleopatra, but what did she ever accomplish? She ruled for 21 years and then lost Egypt to Rome becoming the final Egyptian pharaoh. Sure, there are other queens too. But which people in history invented things like the steam engine, the printing press, our very own democratic republic? Men.
    My god, you're just an unapologetic sexist, aren't you? There's nothing more than that to your thought process on this issue. You've decided to keep digging your hole and no one's going to convince you to put down the shovel. But just in case you can be convinced, just freaking Google "famous women in history", "female entrepreneurs", "women inventors" etc. You'll find lists and lists of women.

    This is of course not to mention that for most of history, women have been restricted in their access to education, excluded from men's business groups and social clubs, and in many societies have been and are still legally mandated to remain subservient to men. Despite this, many women have made and continue to make history! All of this on top of typically being left to raise the children and keep house for the men who, again for most of history, were free to pursue a trade or to do what they pleased, if they were from a wealthy family. 12 hours a day of work keeping a houseful of children does not lend itself to a lot of time for reflection, invention and risk-taking. And what do you see, now that women have better access to education and reliable birth control? Lots and lots more women at work, starting businesses and getting STEM degrees. The world around you does not agree with the "facts" in your head.
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  7. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by RitaRose View Post
    Yeah, but here's the thing... isn't the greatest power of all the ability to continue the line? You know, spread the seed and see your offspring thrive and reproduce?

    Guess which attitude gets you laid on a regular basis by intelligent, strong women. The same kind of woman that would go all "mama bear" on the ass of anyone that would mess with her cubs, and would assure their success in the world. Not the kind of woman that sees herself as a waste of oxygen and has lost the will to fight, for herself or her babies.

    I do believe survival of the gene and thriving progeny are the ultimate displays of "power", don't you think?
    quoted for truth
    beautiful
    yeah you are

    I mean there's so many ants in my eyes! And there are so many TVs, microwaves, radios... I think, I can't, I'm not 100% sure what we have here in stock.. I don't know because I can't see anything! Our prices, I hope, aren't too low!

  8. #478
    wiltondeportes's Avatar
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    You sound like a male who is threatened by change. Fear is not strength, and sexism is not masculinity. Just my personal analysis.

    Adapt or die, Wilton.

    By the by, I'm not white knighting. I'm defending my own deeply held beliefs. It is actually possible for a man to be rational, logical and even self-interested, and believe in gender equality and tolerance. The fact that women responded positively to this, while nonessential to my arguments, might tell you something about how you come off to roughly half the population, who by the way have viewpoints that are exactly as valid as yours.

    And I have all the power I need in my life, which is power over myself and the respect of those I care for. Anyone who feels they need more than that is on the path to becoming a tyrant, in my opinion.
    -What's wrong with admitting differences between the sexes? If that makes me sexist, then I prefer that over the alternative: fantasy land.
    -Adapt or die? Was that a threat coming from someone who feels threatened? By me? Alright....
    -No white knight will admit his knightship. You're a white knight that has bought into the feminist concepts just like the females that agreed with you. Of course they're going to disagree with me. I know other women who are not like the ones agreeing with you. They'd call you weak for all of this argument.

    Citation. Needed. You need to demonstrate, with actual, reliable data, 1) that women hold a disproportionate amount of power over our laws and/or culture compared to men and 2) that this influence has and/or is currently being used to "feminize" the male populace. This would also involve defining your terms well enough that feminization could be actually measured and compared to some sort of historical standard. Good luck!
    I'm going to devote a whole post to this after I finish replying.

    I argue that aggression, which by most definitions involves the initiation of force or threats, is never necessary. Violence is only ever justified in defense against aggression. If you are trying to say that you believe the use of physical force, or the threat thereof, is sometimes the best solution to aggression by others, then I am happy to agree with you on that score. I never claimed otherwise. All men and women should be prepared to fight force with force--to behave otherwise is to invite attack and exploitation.
    Aggression is any use of force. The opposite of aggressive is passive. I think we are on the same page though.

    Putting aside the fact that physical labor capacity is largely irrelevant in a society where the number of occupations requiring significant physical strength is decreasing as machines steadily replace humans in these roles, and is already very small, your idea that women are less rational, less innovative, less capable as leaders and less ambitious as a group is another big-ass unsupported argument. Again, citation needed. Prove to me that these stereotypes are something inherent about women and not an unfortunate relic of a culture that has only recently decided women should be allowed to do much of anything at all--women couldn't even vote in this country when my grandmother was born! Just look at the relative poverty rates of American blacks compared to American whites, 150 years after slavery ended, to see how long these kinds of historical inequalities can keep affecting the descendants of those oppressed--unless you'd like to claim that blacks are inherently less rational, capable and ambitious, as you already have for women? We shouldn't be surprised to see gender inequalities in traditionally male-dominated fields--which until very recently, as in since you and I were born, was ALL professional fields--even if women would be equally capable and willing to pursue them in some imaginary world free of gender bias.
    Ooh this is a rich topic. There are two paths for solving that first question about the women stereotypes.

    1) Historical. Look through history and count who is doing what as I have already stated.

    2) Scientific. Look at research done on differences between the sexes bodily and mentally. Are we still arguing bodily or no? I'll assume you've admitted that women can't reach the same strength that men can. Let's focus on the mental. Here's a link to an article already posted by someone. Excerpts from Brain Sex
    Yet the truth is that virtually every professional scientist and researcher into the subject has concluded that the brains of men and women are different. There has seldom been a greater divide between what intelligent, enlightened opinion presumes - that men and women have the same brain - and what science knows - that they do not.
    At a few hours old girls are more sensitive than boys to touch.
    The female bias towards the personal shows itself in other ways. At four months, most baby girls can distinguish photographs of people they know from photographs of strangers; baby boys cannot."
    The brain biases persist and strengthen as children grow up, "seeing" life through that particular filter of the brain which they find easier, and more natural, to use. That bias in girls towards the personal, for instance, shows up in experiments. A group of children was given a rather special sort of sight test. They looked through a contraption rather like a pair of binoculars, which showed the left and right eye two different images at the same time. One was of an object, the other of a person. The children had been shown exactly the same images, but when asked what they had seen gave different replies. Boys reported seeing significantly more things than people, and girls more people than things.
    As the months go by, and the child stands upright, the boys tend to show a greater interest than the girls in exploring the corners of their small world. Their greater muscle-mass helps them explore and range further than their sisters, and they make fewer journeys back to the reassuring base-camp of mother. Scientists have devised a test where a barrier is strung across the playroom, separating mother and child. The girls tended to stand at the centre of the barrier and cry; the boys made little safaris to the edge of the obstacle to see if there was a way round it.
    Now, who is showing greater rationality and exploration? Men even from the time they are born.

    I want to go back to a thought earlier that stated our society isn't becoming feminized, it's becoming infantilized. I think they are one and the same. Masculine is just generally more of 'something' like leadership, scientific reasoning, innovative thought, and physical capability. Feminine has less of that. Infants have less of that than full grown adults. Feminization is describing the same thing infantilizing is. I know you, Uncephalized, never said anything on infantilization. I just wanted to broadcast that.

    You want to get on race now? Look at the evidence. Which ethnicities show the highest and lowest intelligence? Most enterprising exploration and conquest has been by the white man. Most innovation has been by Europeans and Asians. Askenazi Jews, I believe, have way more Nobel winners in science for their population than anyone else. This argument is irrelevant, but my opinion is that races have strengths and weaknesses just like men and women. Different races evolved in isolated circumstances that lead to these strengths and weaknesses.

    For that matter, who really cares about whether women are equal in aptitude to men in matters of leadership and science? Someone has to raise the kids in the family. That generally requires a good 20-30 years out of a woman's life starting at age 20. After that, there's no way a woman will be able to achieve what a man can that has already spent 30 years working on in a particular field. Women must choose a family OR a career. If they choose career, they're wiped out by evolution because they didn't reproduce. Now today actually, women can chose both. It's only because the Nanny state has provided them with more bogus jobs based in the liberal arts as well as government monetary support called Welfare. Women that chose career over family are ironically experiencing for the first time now what it is like to support burdens. They pay large taxes while the 20 year old down the street is knocked up and living off it. Meanwhile, the career woman's empty house is feeling more and more lonely. Women are only not a burden to the government when they stick with a man and raise the family and do other duties around the house.

    The world is not the same today as it was yesterday, and it will be different again tomorrow. You are yearning for a golden age that never existed. As I said before, adapt or die. This is evolution, and you can't go backwards, but you can get left behind.
    A golden age that never existed? Check out the test scores in America to see if we are getting smarter or dumber. Look at relative designs of cars from the 50's to the 80's, then from the 80's to today. Which period was more innovative? We got a man on the moon in 1969, way before the advanced computers we have today. What have we done since? America is still the greatest country in the world, but it has faded. And before calling me a fanatical patriot or something, stop. I don't care what you think.

  9. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    -What's wrong with admitting differences between the sexes?
    God, no one is saying that there are no differences between males and females - I mean no shit sherlock - how did you figure that out?
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  10. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    You want to get on race now? Look at the evidence.
    I agree that men are superior to women in the same way that whites are superior to other races.

    p.s. Have you read this before? What do you think of it?

    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    A golden age that never existed? Check out the test scores in America to see if we are getting smarter or dumber.
    Ooh! I actually know this one. We are getting smarter, which is a necessary cognitive adaption to an increasingly complex world.
    Last edited by magicmerl; 11-13-2012 at 07:20 PM.
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