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  1. #451
    bloodorchid's Avatar
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    wilton.

    how long has it been since women could wipe their own asses without a man's permission?

    what's 2+2=

    stop reading the internet and get some real life experience with people of all genders
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  2. #452
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    I don't think it's about being brainwashed, but about the social environment and what is typical of men and women for a given place. I'm a strong, successful female, but there's definitely truth in your argument. Having lived in the American West for my entire life, where women know how to shoot guns and chop firewood, where everyone wears Carhartts and tennis shoes/hiking boots, and no one gives a shit about your brand-name purse or jacket or the latest Britney Spears song, it's easy to argue that women are just as strong and capable as men. And most women I've met out here are. But the West is a small minority of America -- I bet that most women who live in New York or Ohio or some shit like that are far from the ones out here. They probably do expect guys to help them dig their car out of the snow and stuff like that.

    I've worked jobs that required physical effort (carrying heavy equipment over rough terrain, mostly), and there was like one or two other women who did the same thing. Most of my colleagues were men -- and you're right, not a lot of women would enjoy that type of work. Personally, I loved it, but I am the outlier. I'm stronger and fitter than some guys I know, but again, I am the outlier. And a lot of these "men" are the puny weaklings who wear skinny jeans and have never lifted anything in their life -- if they put in half the effort that I do into, say, powerlifting, they'd get stronger than me. Physiology is a fact. It's not that women can't be really, really strong, but they have to put in a lot more effort to get to a level where they compete with the men when it comes to labor-intensive jobs. It goes back to the fact that it's not the lifestyle most women want, anyway.

    That reality is one that I prefer to remain isolated from, but it's difficult to ignore the negative effects that it has on society.
    We are on the same page, AmyMac. It takes a real woman to admit that she is a woman.

    The nonstop conflation of masculinity with physical aggression is telling (not just you but several other posters have done this), as is the phrase "feminist bullshit". Feminism, at its core, is the acceptance that women and men are equally valuable as human beings. It has nothing to do, necessarily, with any particular character attributes, nor does it define a set of same that are to be considered "masculine" and "feminine".

    Radical feminism can and does include these ideas and, yes, is often batshit insane, just like the Men's Rights movement, which is its equally radical opposite. Neither of these extremes is heavily represented in either our laws or our general culture; you would be hard-pressed, for example, to find a person walking down the street who would agree with the statement that "all sex is rape" (a somewhat common rad-fem meme) or that "men should be able to waive responsibility for paternity of their children" (a men's rights idea). Similarly, public policy may often be ignorant, short-sighted and misguided, but I hardly think it reasonable to suggest that some pervasive feminist conspiracy is hell-bent on "feminizing" boys.

    I don't think I need to be a brainwashed fem-bot castrato to believe that physical aggression is a negative tendency, either. I came to that conclusion all on my own the first time I got shoved off the front steps by a bigger kid at my preschool. I'm pretty sure I fell on my ass and thought some variation on the theme of "hey, that hurt and I don't like it when people hit me." As I passed through adolescence and became, myself, a large and physically imposing male adult, I learned that along with the ability to cause physical harm comes a responsibility not to do so out of aggression, nor to use my size and capacity for violence to threaten or coerce; that violence is only to be employed in the defense of self or others from aggression. No one had to indoctrinate me to bring me to this conclusion; I don't want to live in a world where aggression--either physical or implied through intimidation--is acceptable, and so I act accordingly as best I can.

    None of this is to imply that I don't have a capacity for aggression, or a desire to enact violence; that I don't feel rage and hatred; that I haven't, at one time or another, been forced to exert every fiber of my mental strength to prevent doing something to someone I would later regret. The memory of the few times I have caused someone physical harm, even unintentionally, and the sickening regret I invariably feel afterward, has always been enough to remind me to keep my head when serious violence started to seem like a good idea.

    I would argue that the cultivation of this kind of strength is superior to the kind of showy machismo that just perpetuates the antiquated feudal notions of "honor" and strength through war and conquest--whatever the modern equivalent, which mostly seems to be sports, punctuated by bar fights and invading countries full of brown people (at the upper end of the economic spectrum, of course, we also see such lovely pastimes as corporate capitalism and the endlessly inane machinations of the mostly-male political class). There was a time for that, and it was in the 13th century. We've got bigger problems to solve, and today's heroes are the people solving them, regardless of what equipment they were born with or whether they like to play with dolls or trucks.

    As for "unlocking their true masculinity", who the fuck are you to decide how a child "should" behave, how aggressive or stereotypically masculine a given teenager "ought" to be? Did you ever stop to consider that maybe we're finally arriving, as a culture, at a place where everyone feels more comfortable behaving in the way that feels most appropriate for them? That maybe we're realizing we don't need to fit everyone in a neatly-labeled box and shun them if they defy their externally-applied labels? That maybe more men are acting in ways you consider "feminine", not because someone has made them this way, but because the people that would have them deny these tendencies, just to satisfy their longing for a neat and orderly world or to assuage their fear of the Other, are thankfully fading into irrelevance? Something to think about.

    As for your allusion to the advent of modern infotainment, I fail to see how this is a gender issue. Television is an equal-opportunity stupidity machine. More and more girls and women play video games every year, as the industry begins to cater more to them instead of only targeting males age 13-30 with physically-impossible women clad in leather bikinis. Internet porn may well be a bigger problem for men than women, but this isn't due to some conspiracy; it's a simple consequence of men relying more heavily on audiovisual cues for arousal. Women, as a group, are just as addicted to their preferred form of pornography--the euphemistically-named "romance novel" genre, which perpetuates ideas about relationships and sex that are often just as ridiculous, exaggerated, fetishistic, violence-endorsing, and generally out of touch with reality as porn videos.
    Lots of ladies have patted you on the back for your tremendous white knighting here. I'm not buying it. You sound like a male that hasn't been able to gain a great deal of power and freedom in your life, so you try to explain to others that you nor any other male deserves any of it. Just my personal analysis since you think I am a sexist pig who should write for the Onion.

    -No one is claiming the feminists planned on feminizing boys. The women got too much power, and our culture as a whole became too feminized as a result.

    -Physical aggression plays a quiet role that appears useless 99% of the time until you actually need it. It does play a role, but that had no part in my argument. My main points about masculinity involved scientific reasoning, innovation, leadership, drive to succeed, and physical capability relating to labor.

    -Give me a break about 'invading countries with brown people'. The Middle East hates us, and would destroy us if they could. This is not simply related to our stay there; they hated us before. Our soldiers have still been forced to maintain the "Rules of Engagement" that have made us very courteous occupiers. I could go on, but I will stop. This topic could be a thread in itself.

    -I don't care how an individual child behaves. I care how our society behaves as a group. Don't play the "poor little child who's different" card, and get on the topic of our society. Is it okay to you that we are slowly losing qualities from our society that once made us great?

    ***PS guys: This site seems to keep blocking my IP address. If I drop out of this forum, I guess you will know why.
    Last edited by wiltondeportes; 11-13-2012 at 01:21 AM.

  3. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodorchid View Post
    wilton.

    how long has it been since women could wipe their own asses without a man's permission?

    what's 2+2=

    stop reading the internet and get some real life experience with people of all genders
    Is that seriously the best reply you could come up with? Making emotional statements will not help your case. In fact, they just confirm me even more.

  4. #454
    bloodorchid's Avatar
    bloodorchid is offline Senior Member
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    If that's what you call emotional then maybe you're trolololo funnier than i thought
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    yeah you are

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  5. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    Ok, physical labor has been conceded. Thank you.

    Why would women be as capable as men in scientific reasoning or leadership? These have always been male-dominated areas. Look back over all of recorded history. That's over 6,000 years for those counting at home. How many women have invented something extraordinary or made a scientific breakthrough? How many have commanded the respect of their peers?

    The assumed state of things is not that all genders are equal. Since the beginning of us being human, I believe there were gender roles. This lead to differing evolution between the sexes.
    How long have women been able to control if/when/how many children they had? How long have women been allowed to work outside the home? We are finally at a place in time when women have the right to educate themselves, make their own life decisions, own property, drive, have jobs. When brute strength ruled women were at a disadvantage. Now that the playing field is leveling women are making great strides. There is still the problem of how to balance family with a career and some women are opting out of the former, but they can these days. A friend of mine is a research scientist at the NIH. Received the offer before she even finished her PHD in the junctions of biology, physics and chemistry. She's brilliant, but almost didn't get into the sciences because of how she didn't want to be the "smart one". She has super supportive parents who are incredibly proud of her, but even in this environment, social pressure almost made her choose a less demanding study. She's also chosen not to have children and instead devote her life to her career. How many women have this supportive an environment and are willing to make this choice? THIS is what keeps women out of STEM careers and leadership positions.

  6. #456
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    I think its weird that people look at the past with such rose color glasses.

    I would rather be a woman today than one back in 1200 BC, 1692, 1880 or even 1950. We have SO MANY choices now for men and women that used to not be available. You can absolutely go live primitively and serve your husband who kills you meat and expects you to make babies. Or you can be a single entrepreneur. And same for men- they have choices. If you like living off the land and being a manly man, move to Alaska. But if you want to be a stay at home dad you can do that too.

    If what other people do frustrates you, chances are you are unhappy with your own choices. My being a professional, childless woman with a good career does not stop you from being a man that has dominion over his wife... just don't date or marry me. Find one of the many women very happy to serve her provider and take one of the jobs that relies on brute force and strength to enable yourself to serve your wife. There are PLENTY of opportunities to be in a group that limits women to traditional roles.

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  7. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    We are on the same page, AmyMac. It takes a real woman to admit that she is a woman.


    Lots of ladies have patted you on the back for your tremendous white knighting here. I'm not buying it. You sound like a male that hasn't been able to gain a great deal of power and freedom in your life, so you try to explain to others that you nor any other male deserves any of it. Just my personal analysis since you think I am a sexist pig who should write for the Onion.

    -No one is claiming the feminists planned on feminizing boys. The women got too much power, and our culture as a whole became too feminized as a result.

    -Physical aggression plays a quiet role that appears useless 99% of the time until you actually need it. It does play a role, but that had no part in my argument. My main points about masculinity involved scientific reasoning, innovation, leadership, drive to succeed, and physical capability relating to labor.

    -Give me a break about 'invading countries with brown people'. The Middle East hates us, and would destroy us if they could. This is not simply related to our stay there; they hated us before. Our soldiers have still been forced to maintain the "Rules of Engagement" that have made us very courteous occupiers. I could go on, but I will stop. This topic could be a thread in itself.

    -I don't care how an individual child behaves. I care how our society behaves as a group. Don't play the "poor little child who's different" card, and get on the topic of our society. Is it okay to you that we are slowly losing qualities from our society that once made us great?

    ***PS guys: This site seems to keep blocking my IP address. If I drop out of this forum, I guess you will know why.
    Lol, everyone on this site is gonna hate you, but you get it. Guys are such pussies these days.

  8. #458
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    Well, jmo, but "pussies" who can put on a suit and make six figures are the alpha males in this culture. Men who can keep up with a smart female are hot.

    In real life I find that the men who beat their chests the most and make fun of feminism or "girly men" are over compensating for some kind of failure. Kind of like 8th grade educated skinheads who blame all those "foreigners" for taking their jobs.

  9. #459
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    A lot of you people don't live in the real world.

    I work on a university campus. I can tell you there are lots of female engineers and computer scientists and bioengineering researchers coming up through the ranks. Only a hundred years ago it was thought that it was dangerous to a woman's health to go to college.

    Men are only becoming feminized because our entire culture is becoming infantilized by television and advertising. Instant gratification has a way of keeping men (and women) weak and dependent. And of course, these qualities are confused with the feminine, when instead they are the qualities of children.
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  10. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post

    Men are only becoming feminized because our entire culture is becoming infantilized by television and advertising. Instant gratification has a way of keeping men (and women) weak and dependent. And of course, these qualities are confused with the feminine, when instead they are the qualities of children.
    Well said. The whole dominant culture is designed to create dependency, it has nothing to do with gender. To point to gender just divides us further and sheds no light on the situation.

    Wilton I think you are smarter than that, dig a little deeper and see who would benefit from an entire population of dependent adults acting like children and pointing fingers at one another and blaming each other for the mess they're in. You can't possibly believe that women haven't contributed significantly to our culture because they are less capable, because then you'd have to say the same for minorities too. I am disappointed in you I thought you had better critical thinking skills.

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