The Feminization of Males page 43

[bloodorchid]

):

i guess i'll go break the bad news to my guy..

[wiltondeportes]

And to further that Billy Joel quote, "tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems." I'm afraid you're tilting at the wrong windmill. Feminism isn't the problem. The actual problem is what came flying out of the pandora's box that you yourself stated is man-made. Civilization and technology. The world has evolved into a state where brawn is less important than brains in sustaining one's self. If you want to go back to the good ol' days then you need to stuff that back into the box, give up all the modern advances that you're so fond of, including the agrarian revolution (hello grains) which allowed for the amassing of food and the slow creep towards the accumulation of knowledge. (Good luck with that.) If anything, we're coming full circle back to our origins in a more egalitarian society. I'd say we're in the process of shrugging off the hangover from the last 10,000 years of false social structure. It's just taking some longer to adapt to the idea than others.

Nice catch on the quote.

Civilization is ultimately a success, so it is Cultural Marxism bringing it down, not saving it.

Civilization is the only solution for long term evolution. I believe our society will have to evolve in the coming century to something more sustainable, else we go to war until our numbers are down. Honestly, I see the latter. Our technology gains will still be held onto by at least a few, and we will progress on. One day we may find a way off this rock. We will die if we are a failed civilization, but we will die whether the tribal idea succeeds or fails.

I don't see anything wrong with that future. Survival has always been for the strong. If we weren't at war as a country, we would be at war as tribes. Luckily, modern warfare is far less vicious.

[Kochin]

I believe that, in recent Western (and a lot of Eastern) history, the idea of what is "femenine" has been weakened. For the past several hundred years we've been encouraging women to be frail, thin, and sickly and to put image before health. We've encouraged them to aim to be "unmasculine" by repressing certain emotions and displaying others, by avoiding becoming "too" muscular, by lounging around, not doing much until their legs and cores are weak, their bones degrade through childbearing and their minds are unworked, weakened by consumerism and a lack of worthy pursuits. Whilst some women broke the mould, in general, we've encouraged women to be weak in every sense.

And now men are being encouraged to do the same.

Whilst I'd rather that heterosexual men took more pride in themselves and aimed to be stronger, more balanced and healthier, I think the problem isn't so much a "feminization" of men as a general weakening of society. Rather than looking at the state of women and just letting women return to being the strong, healthy creatures we were before our notions of "class" decided that "good" women were weak and feeble, rather than encourage men to stay the same and guide women into a stronger "femenine" we've taken the "easier" route and encouraged men's standards to drop. Many of these weak, frail men seem to believe themselves to be the very image of masculinity and refuse to acknowledge any more masculine male. It isn't an issue of "masculine vs femenine", it's an issue of weakness, physical and mental, an issue of consumerism, vanity, arrogance and an unwillingness to become strong which have spread like a plague through the modern West and some of the far East.

[wiltondeportes]

I believe that, in recent Western (and a lot of Eastern) history, the idea of what is "femenine" has been weakened. For the past several hundred years we've been encouraging women to be frail, thin, and sickly and to put image before health. We've encouraged them to aim to be "unmasculine" by repressing certain emotions and displaying others, by avoiding becoming "too" muscular, by lounging around, not doing much until their legs and cores are weak, their bones degrade through childbearing and their minds are unworked, weakened by consumerism and a lack of worthy pursuits. Whilst some women broke the mould, in general, we've encouraged women to be weak in every sense.

And now men are being encouraged to do the same.

Whilst I'd rather that heterosexual men took more pride in themselves and aimed to be stronger, more balanced and healthier, I think the problem isn't so much a "feminization" of men as a general weakening of society. Rather than looking at the state of women and just letting women return to being the strong, healthy creatures we were before our notions of "class" decided that "good" women were weak and feeble, rather than encourage men to stay the same and guide women into a stronger "femenine" we've taken the "easier" route and encouraged men's standards to drop. Many of these weak, frail men seem to believe themselves to be the very image of masculinity and refuse to acknowledge any more masculine male. It isn't an issue of "masculine vs femenine", it's an issue of weakness, physical and mental, an issue of consumerism, vanity, arrogance and an unwillingness to become strong which have spread like a plague through the modern West and some of the far East.

I don't think women are weak overall. They have strengths in areas that the men lack. Why can't you admit that the women have weaknesses where the men are strong? Too publicly incorrect? Men beat women in all activities at the core of economic production and innovation (science, technology, engineering, mathematics). Men are better leaders too. I'm also pretty sure you won't find enough girls willing to do half the physical labor that men do. Construction? Infantry? Oil rigger? Crab fisherman? Yeah right. Any women out there claiming women to be as capable as a man at these tasks is very deluded and has been brain washed. Some women are capable, but most are not. We are not talking about outliers or minorities. The important thing is the majority, but of course society has brainwashed you differently.

When men have more power, you have a masculinized society. When women have more power, you have a feminized society. Women do have too much power right now, and that is an element of what's wrong with our society. Due to the interconnected nature of complex systems, I would not say it is THE reason for our issues.

Which are, by the way? I agree there are problems in the world, but let's agree on what they are before assuming that the boogeyman is at every corner. There are actual good things going on in this world right now. I think people are too pessimistic at the moment.

[Blackcatbone]

I don't think women are weak overall. They have strengths in areas that the men lack. Why can't you admit that the women have weaknesses where the men are strong? Too publicly incorrect? Men beat women in all activities at the core of economic production and innovation (science, technology, engineering, mathematics). Men are better leaders too. I'm also pretty sure you won't find enough girls willing to do half the physical labor that men do. Construction? Infantry? Oil rigger? Crab fisherman? Yeah right. Any women out there claiming women to be as capable as a man at these tasks is very deluded and has been brain washed. Some women are capable, but most are not. We are not talking about outliers or minorities. The important thing is the majority, but of course society has brainwashed you differently.

When men have more power, you have a masculinized society. When women have more power, you have a feminized society. Women do have too much power right now, and that is an element of what's wrong with our society. Due to the interconnected nature of complex systems, I would not say it is THE reason for our issues.

Which are, by the way? I agree there are problems in the world, but let's agree on what they are before assuming that the boogeyman is at every corner. There are actual good things going on in this world right now. I think people are too pessimistic at the moment.

And . . . . you're wrong. See, the problem is that you're approaching it from a very biased perspective, which is actually what is keeping more women from succeeding in traditionally male dominated fields (STEM and leadership). Not just because of glass ceilings, but because most women don't want to be seen as too competitive, so hold themselves back.

http://www.aauw.org/learn/research/u...xecsummary.pdf
Better Bottom Line - Building Gender Balanced Business

As for heavier labor, well yes, men will always dominate those fields due to obvious physical advantages. But those aren't the careers running the world.

[RitaRose]

And . . . . you're wrong. See, the problem is that you're approaching it from a very biased perspective, which is actually what is keeping more women from succeeding in traditionally male dominated fields (STEM and leadership). Not just because of glass ceilings, but because most women don't want to be seen as too competitive, so hold themselves back.

http://www.aauw.org/learn/research/u...xecsummary.pdf
Better Bottom Line - Building Gender Balanced Business

As for heavier labor, well yes, men will always dominate those fields due to obvious physical advantages. But those aren't the careers running the world.

I agree, though I do see quite a bit of glass ceiling when it comes to certain industries.

When I started my job 5 years ago, I had to prove myself. They literally had bets going on whether I would cry and leave or not, and I made a few of the guys some money when I not only stayed but did a better job than a lot of the men. While my job is very physical, it's mostly "fear" that is an issue for newbies, and I handle it quite well.

At the same time, I've had trouble moving into other jobs within the company. The office drones don't want to work to work with sweaty people (and those labororers can't possibly know anything about business, right? - smirk) while the men in the field have told me multiple times that they don't want to work with women - out loud and to my face. It's not a matter of inability to do the job, it's a matter of prejudice disallowing any chance I have to prove myself.

It's so invasive that I even had to switch union reps because the one assigned to me stood up for the good ole boys and threw women under the bus, every time. He defended a guy that cussed out customers, made constant slurs against homosexuals (to their faces even), spent half of his shift hanging out at restaurants and was known to have episodes of roid rage (which he admitted to doing).

On the other hand, I worked my ass off, accomplished more than the average guy, customers loved me and was known as a "workhorse" by the schedulers. If it absolutely had to be done right, then give it to me. When a customer falsely accused me of challenging him to a fistfight, all the rep could say was that I must have said something wrong and shouldn't have pissed the customer off.

I was even told once by a guy I was dating (who quickly became an ex) that, if a man and a woman are both up for a job, then the man should get it because a woman can always find a man to support her. She doesn't really need to work. What made it all the more obnoxious was that I was financially supoorting him at the time.

So... yeah, I don't see a level playing field, even for those of us that don't care about appearing competitive.

[Kochin]

I don't think women are weak overall. They have strengths in areas that the men lack. Why can't you admit that the women have weaknesses where the men are strong? Too publicly incorrect? Men beat women in all activities at the core of economic production and innovation (science, technology, engineering, mathematics). Men are better leaders too. I'm also pretty sure you won't find enough girls willing to do half the physical labor that men do. Construction? Infantry? Oil rigger? Crab fisherman? Yeah right. Any women out there claiming women to be as capable as a man at these tasks is very deluded and has been brain washed. Some women are capable, but most are not. We are not talking about outliers or minorities. The important thing is the majority, but of course society has brainwashed you differently.

When men have more power, you have a masculinized society. When women have more power, you have a feminized society. Women do have too much power right now, and that is an element of what's wrong with our society. Due to the interconnected nature of complex systems, I would not say it is THE reason for our issues.

Which are, by the way? I agree there are problems in the world, but let's agree on what they are before assuming that the boogeyman is at every corner. There are actual good things going on in this world right now. I think people are too pessimistic at the moment.

I'm not saying that women are naturally weak. You're getting this wrong. I was saying that, regardless of our NATURAL differences, women have been kept ARTIFICIALLY weak for a very long time. And that, instead of equality encouraging women to become stronger (more in accordance with our natural potential), we're encouraging men to become weak consumers, like women have been encouraged or forced to be historically. NONE of us should be physically feeble, very skinny, very fat, uneducated, mentally feeble... Not men OR women. What I'm saying is it isn't feminization, because many of the traits of modern men are NOT the natural traits of women. It's that the modern world encourages weakness.

[RitaRose]

I'm not saying that women are naturally weak. You're getting this wrong. I was saying that, regardless of our NATURAL differences, women have been kept ARTIFICIALLY weak for a very long time. And that, instead of equality encouraging women to become stronger (more in accordance with our natural potential), we're encouraging men to become weak consumers, like women have been encouraged or forced to be historically. NONE of us should be physically feeble, very skinny, very fat, uneducated, mentally feeble... Not men OR women. What I'm saying is it isn't feminization, because many of the traits of modern men are NOT the natural traits of women. It's that the modern world encourages weakness.

I would agree with this.

[magnolia1973]

I don't think brute strength matters much these days, given machines. Pretty much "labor" has been replaced by machines and intellectual capital is what pays (in the US). Men and women are pretty equal in terms of their contributions to intellectual capital.
In homebuilding these days, the least important and most replaceable is the guy that can lift a hammer. The most important is the mind behind the business, the architect, the manager, the accountant.... all roles women can do as well as men.

[AmyMac703]

I don't think women are weak overall. They have strengths in areas that the men lack. Why can't you admit that the women have weaknesses where the men are strong? Too publicly incorrect? Men beat women in all activities at the core of economic production and innovation (science, technology, engineering, mathematics). Men are better leaders too. I'm also pretty sure you won't find enough girls willing to do half the physical labor that men do. Construction? Infantry? Oil rigger? Crab fisherman? Yeah right. Any women out there claiming women to be as capable as a man at these tasks is very deluded and has been brain washed. Some women are capable, but most are not. We are not talking about outliers or minorities. The important thing is the majority, but of course society has brainwashed you differently.

When men have more power, you have a masculinized society. When women have more power, you have a feminized society. Women do have too much power right now, and that is an element of what's wrong with our society. Due to the interconnected nature of complex systems, I would not say it is THE reason for our issues.

Which are, by the way? I agree there are problems in the world, but let's agree on what they are before assuming that the boogeyman is at every corner. There are actual good things going on in this world right now. I think people are too pessimistic at the moment.

I don't think it's about being brainwashed, but about the social environment and what is typical of men and women for a given place. I'm a strong, successful female, but there's definitely truth in your argument. Having lived in the American West for my entire life, where women know how to shoot guns and chop firewood, where everyone wears Carhartts and tennis shoes/hiking boots, and no one gives a shit about your brand-name purse or jacket or the latest Britney Spears song, it's easy to argue that women are just as strong and capable as men. And most women I've met out here are. But the West is a small minority of America -- I bet that most women who live in New York or Ohio or some shit like that are far from the ones out here. They probably do expect guys to help them dig their car out of the snow and stuff like that.

I've worked jobs that required physical effort (carrying heavy equipment over rough terrain, mostly), and there was like one or two other women who did the same thing. Most of my colleagues were men -- and you're right, not a lot of women would enjoy that type of work. Personally, I loved it, but I am the outlier. I'm stronger and fitter than some guys I know, but again, I am the outlier. And a lot of these "men" are the puny weaklings who wear skinny jeans and have never lifted anything in their life -- if they put in half the effort that I do into, say, powerlifting, they'd get stronger than me. Physiology is a fact. It's not that women can't be really, really strong, but they have to put in a lot more effort to get to a level where they compete with the men when it comes to labor-intensive jobs. It goes back to the fact that it's not the lifestyle most women want, anyway.

That reality is one that I prefer to remain isolated from, but it's difficult to ignore the negative effects that it has on society.