Page 1 of 13 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 129

Thread: Congruent Exercise page

  1. #1
    UK Guy's Avatar
    UK Guy is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    165

    Congruent Exercise

    Primal Fuel
    I've just finished reading the manual / book by Bill DeSimone called "Congruent Exercise".

    I bought two books at the same time and started reading them together, this one and "Convict Conditioning", as I was searching for answers as to why at 45 and a lifetime of sports and training my body had a catalogue of aches and pains in the morning ( which persisted throughout the day ) and felt like it was falling apart. Mark's approach to training and fitness was helping me in this regard but it wasn't the full answer.
    Well when I started to read Bill's stuff the light switch in my head went on and I realised that I had found what I was looking for. So much so that I realised that even the bodyweight stuff in "Convict Conditioning" may not be the answer, and if pursued too diligently without making quite a few modifications may become part of the problem for some people.
    After reading "Congruent Exercise", which is about the application of correct biomechanics and it's relevance to long term safe exercise, I realised that much of what I'd been doing in the past, which I'd picked up from various "expert" and not so expert sources was actually wrong and detrimental.
    It's not a large book, but the information in it may be lifesaving for some...for some it might come too late.
    After reading it some of you Crossfitters, P90Xers and even the Starting Strength devotees and extreme bodyweight enthusiasts may wish to re evaluate what you are doing in terms of exercise. Some of you may argue back with examples of people ( maybe yourselves who have done these activities for years with no ill effects and nothing but positive results.
    You may be the lucky ones, we all have heard the stories of those who have smoked and drank heavily and lived to a ripe old age....and on the flip side those who have exercised diligently, then died of a heart attack...genetic inheritance is a cruel mistress. Personally, I have never been a gambling man, and armed with this information I am more than inclined to play the percentages in favour of safety.
    For those who like to push the boundaries safety wise in your training with your exercise choices I realise that what I am suggesting is akin to me asking a heroin addict to give up his favourite drug in favour of trying a nice herbal tea instead.
    Just remember, if you are inclined to argue that nothing negative has happened to you via your exercise choices, that a lot of what can happen to the body is down to wear and tear...not sudden acute injuries...maybe nothing has happened....yet.
    I urge you all to get a copy of this book, and if so inclined, his older publication "Moment Arm Exercise" ( I've got my copy..going to start that next ) read it and take the time to digest the logic supporting the message. Long term you might be glad you did.
    PS If you are still not convinced then Bill has produced a number of instructional videos on You Tube. Type in "optimalex" and you will see his take on training the calves, forearms, chest, biceps and his idea of the proper way to do a chin up, with the biomechanical reasoning behind it. He also has a 90 minute presentation on Youtube from The 21 Convention 2010. This will give you a flavour of what he is about.

  2. #2
    Coach Palfrey's Avatar
    Coach Palfrey is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,140
    Is this serious? Biomechanics and Body By Science in the same sentence?!

    A training programme that largely advocates machine-based exercise for the masses can't really be compared to those other programmes.

  3. #3
    UK Guy's Avatar
    UK Guy is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    165
    Well I suggest you buy the book...because the exercises that are suggested in the book are mainly free weight. The object of this book and his other one is the correct use of biomechanical principles in order to ensure long term health and safety of the body's structure and joints, while at the same time debunking many of the myths that have developed over the years concerning the performance and selection of various exercise choices.
    I'm pretty confident that long term sandbag lifting will produce it's fair share of casualties over the years.
    Did you fully read my post? Where on earth did I mention "Body By Science"?

  4. #4
    dragonmamma's Avatar
    dragonmamma is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,765
    Quote Originally Posted by UK Guy View Post
    If you are still not convinced then Bill has produced a number of instructional videos on You Tube. Type in "optimalex" and you will see his take on training the calves, forearms, chest, biceps and his idea of the proper way to do a chin up, with the biomechanical reasoning behind it. He also has a 90 minute presentation on Youtube from The 21 Convention 2010. This will give you a flavour of what he is about.
    Just watched the video about The Congruent Chin-up since I happen to be very familiar with all sorts of chin-up variations. Holy smokes, this guy is wordy! It took 9 minutes to get across the basic message that you should be careful to follow the natural path of your joints and not put any strain on them. If someone really likes to analyze movements to death then this is the ticket, but I think I'd go bonkers if I watched a 90 minute presentation or tried to read an entire book by him.

  5. #5
    Coach Palfrey's Avatar
    Coach Palfrey is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,140
    Quote Originally Posted by UK Guy View Post
    Well I suggest you buy the book...because the exercises that are suggested in the book are mainly free weight. The object of this book and his other one is the correct use of biomechanical principles in order to ensure long term health and safety of the body's structure and joints, while at the same time debunking many of the myths that have developed over the years concerning the performance and selection of various exercise choices.
    I'm pretty confident that long term sandbag lifting will produce it's fair share of casualties over the years.
    Did you fully read my post? Where on earth did I mention "Body By Science"?
    You got me - I didn't fully read the post.

    But, "long term sandbag lifting will produce it's fair share of casualties over the years" is about the most ridiculous statement on this forum so far this year.

  6. #6
    UK Guy's Avatar
    UK Guy is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    165
    The most ridiculous statement? Really? Would you care to explain why that is so? I do realise that you have a vested interest in defending sandbag training as you were trying to promote a course on it recently. This is a big problem in the fitness industry where people will defend an ideology or method of training to the hilt ( even though you can pick numerous holes in it ) just because they have a lot to gain by doing so. An example of this is the NSCA which vigorously defends training with percentages of 1RM as it fits with their weightlifting influenced model of training, despite the fact that there is no logic behind it and current thinking concerning resistance training for non weightlifters is moving away from that model.

  7. #7
    Apex Predator's Avatar
    Apex Predator is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,354
    So, not being particularly inclined to read his book, I looked around the interwebs to see if I could see the type of advice he espouses. The only lengthy interview I found printed(no video on this comp) was here:

    Ultimate Exercise - Interview with Bill De Simone, Author of Moment Arm Exercise

    which is actually an interview with Doug McGuff, of BBS fame. Looks like it might be a little old, but it's what I found. Maybe he's updated some thinking. A couple observations:

    The injury that caused him to pursue this book? He ruptured a bicep tendon- DOING A SLOW CURL! (So much for slow=safe. Curls aren't exactly a worthwhile exercise, either. )

    His view on nutrition, well, sucks:

    "DM: To you hold to any particular dietary philosophy?

    BS: No. But I don’t underestimate the sheer volume of food most people eat. I get clients who say “I’m not paying attention to diet right now”. Well, if your goal is weight loss, you have to. I did some work with Sears (of the Zone diet) a few years ago. What got lost in all the hype was that he said everyone probably has a breakdown of the macronutrients that works best for them, but it was the 40-30-30 thing that caught on. But in the fine print he thought that everyone probably had a particular breakdown that worked. Overall, I think not overeating is the key."

    He describes most of his clients as just barely more than sedentary.

    Why I think this is important:

    First off, I wonder how the crappy diet affects recovery. I mean, if he's influenced by Sears, he's not even getting enough fat to maintain his body, let alone recover. Lots of broths, fats, connective tissues have at least anecdotally helped joints. I sure feel a lot better when I'm eating them. Insufficient calories are also going to affect recovery.

    Second, he's clearly coming from a background with terrible ideas as to what constitutes training. I mean, really, a slow curl? That's a terrible exercise. So his experiences are in that vein, and his reactions are to that culture.

    From his interactions with clients, they just don't sound that motivated. That also likely influences his worldview.

    It may sound like I'm setting up to bash him, but not really.

    I think the he and Rip are just aimed at radically different groups- groups that don't even define things as simple as effort, pain, commitment, etc in the same ballpark. So they are essentially speaking different languages. Hence the disagreement. The more I read about BBS/CE, the more I realized a lot of the unspoken things are radically, radically different. There may well be more people in the population that they speak to than I realized. I think that going forward, when the subject comes up in posts, I'll try to help people asking which to do understand the difference is as much a mindset difference as a technique difference.

  8. #8
    UK Guy's Avatar
    UK Guy is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    165
    dragonmamma,
    Let's put this into context. The logical argument behind the videos has to be in depth and detailed because there are people out there who are so entrenched in their beliefs through years of misinformation that they will need to be practically hammered over the head with the truth. Decades of trainees have done debilitating exercises without question because that is what they have seen other people do, or have been told to do by some misguided trainer / friend / fellow gym member. There is tons of well meaning but incorrect information out there. People still do pullups and presses behind the neck, because they "feel" the exercise. What they don't "feel" yet is the debilitating joint pain. Many trainees live for todays euphoric exercise "high" but fail to take into account what may happen tomorrow or years down the line. They are the ones who need a detailed argument because they need convincing. As it is the book is quite short and not hard to understand considering the subject topic.

  9. #9
    UK Guy's Avatar
    UK Guy is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    165
    Apex,
    Having read some of your posts I know that you are a big Rippetoe fan, so on that score regarding training philosophy we will have to agree to disagree.
    You've made some important points, but I feel you have slightly misunderstood the context that they were made in the interview.
    !) DeSimones and Rippetoes target audience and philosophy's are different. Rippetoe is about strength training as a performance enhancer, DeSimone has an outlook where he views strength training as an adjunct to a healthy life that can be pursued by anyone well into their old age. He views strength training as an activity that can benefit the old...not eventually cripple them. His clients largely reflect his philosophy. Not every trainer wants to train gym gorillas or superstar athletes.
    2) The speed of the curl that injured him was not the reason why the injury happened,and why he subsequently researched applied biomechanics for the answers he was looking for. He was injured because he had spent many years applying full range of motion to his exercises which led to unnecessary wear and tear on his body.
    3) I have read more than one interview with the man. He has never professed to being a nutritional expert and has gone on record as saying so. That is not his field of expertise...yet people still ask him for his opinion on it. Mark is a nutritional expert.....practically everyone on here agrees with his advice in that area...but not everyone agrees with his exercise prescriptions 100%

  10. #10
    Apex Predator's Avatar
    Apex Predator is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,354
    Primal Blueprint Expert Certification
    Quote Originally Posted by UK Guy View Post
    Apex,
    Having read some of your posts I know that you are a big Rippetoe fan, so on that score regarding training philosophy we will have to agree to disagree.
    You've made some important points, but I feel you have slightly misunderstood the context that they were made in the interview.
    !) DeSimones and Rippetoes target audience and philosophy's are different. Rippetoe is about strength training as a performance enhancer, DeSimone has an outlook where he views strength training as an adjunct to a healthy life that can be pursued by anyone well into their old age. He views strength training as an activity that can benefit the old...not eventually cripple them. His clients largely reflect his philosophy. Not every trainer wants to train gym gorillas or superstar athletes.
    2) The speed of the curl that injured him was not the reason why the injury happened,and why he subsequently researched applied biomechanics for the answers he was looking for. He was injured because he had spent many years applying full range of motion to his exercises which led to unnecessary wear and tear on his body.
    3) I have read more than one interview with the man. He has never professed to being a nutritional expert and has gone on record as saying so. That is not his field of expertise...yet people still ask him for his opinion on it. Mark is a nutritional expert.....practically everyone on here agrees with his advice in that area...but not everyone agrees with his exercise prescriptions 100%
    I think at this point we are actually agreeing more than disagreeing.

    We agree that the goals of people pursuing Rip's methods and Bill's methods are different. I would add that different personalities and individual tendencies are a major part of the difference in goals and that will also be reflected in the experiences of people who use either method, and much more so in the experiences of people who have tried both(i.e. If someone who is predisposed to prefer Rip's methods tries both, they will strongly prefer Rip's, if one predisposed to prefer Bills tries both, they will strongly prefer Bills, while either who tries the one they like will somewhat prefer that one, and either that tries the one they don't like will somewhat dislike it).

    I still don't understand the "wear and tear" argument- I train Rip-style(of course) fairly aggressively, but the vast majority(if not all) of my wear and tear come outside the gym, living an active life. Perhaps my experience here is an outlier, but I would think it's closer to the average forumite than not.

    My intent in bringing up his nutritional view was less to bash him(as you say, it's not as though he claims to be an expert), but rather to possibly explain the differences in recovery seen by the two groups.

Page 1 of 13 12311 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •