Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 48

Thread: Debating with vegans, need help! :) page 4

  1. #31
    magnolia1973's Avatar
    magnolia1973 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,073
    I don't see how the farming/harvesting of animals is any less painful or destructive than farming/harvesting plants.

    I think it comes to, if we were to survive with the least impact on the environment, we would have to be hunter/ gatherers. We could not gather enough nuts/berries/plants to survive therefore we need to hunt and eat meat.

    To provide a vegan diet that sustains a person without meat requires farming and that will create habitat destruction and therefore suffering for wild animals. To provide a meat diet that does not require hunting also creates habitat destruction and therefore suffering for wild animals. It also creates some level of potential suffering of the meat animals who are raised in some level of confinement and slaughtered.

    Therefore, the diet creating the least overall suffering while still maintianing life would be a hunter/gatherer. The modern vegan diet does not closely resemble that of a gatherer and does create suffering for animals, taking their lives in exchange for the convenience and sustenance for our vegan.

  2. #32
    elainevdw's Avatar
    elainevdw is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Nevada, USA
    Posts
    260
    First tip: Don't debate with vegans. They're emotionally fragile from carb overload plus no animal fats.

    Although a perennial favorite with me is Raw Food SOS: Troubleshooting on the Raw Food Diet ... I first discovered it when I was reading reviews of the China Study book (which is horrible, just horrible). She's pretty hilarious when she's layin' the scientific nutrition smackdowns.
    ~elaine. twitter, primal journal.


    Quote Originally Posted by vontrapp View Post
    CoWorker: What? Cmon live a little.
    Me: No thanks, I'd rather live a lot.

  3. #33
    magnolia1973's Avatar
    magnolia1973 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,073
    LOL... the AR people used to picket Procter and Gamble with signs like "Animals Died For Your Laundry" (died laid out to look like TIDE)... you could picket the healthfood store with "Animals DIED for your Tofurkey" and have little pics of field mice and foxes.

    But I do think that eating primal, unless you are hunting and gathering, is at least as impactful on the environment and animal suffering as being a vegan.

  4. #34
    mjoshuahill's Avatar
    mjoshuahill is offline Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Warwick, Bermuda
    Posts
    74
    Quote Originally Posted by magnolia1973 View Post
    I don't see how the farming/harvesting of animals is any less painful or destructive than farming/harvesting plants.

    I think it comes to, if we were to survive with the least impact on the environment, we would have to be hunter/ gatherers. We could not gather enough nuts/berries/plants to survive therefore we need to hunt and eat meat.

    To provide a vegan diet that sustains a person without meat requires farming and that will create habitat destruction and therefore suffering for wild animals. To provide a meat diet that does not require hunting also creates habitat destruction and therefore suffering for wild animals. It also creates some level of potential suffering of the meat animals who are raised in some level of confinement and slaughtered.

    Therefore, the diet creating the least overall suffering while still maintianing life would be a hunter/gatherer. The modern vegan diet does not closely resemble that of a gatherer and does create suffering for animals, taking their lives in exchange for the convenience and sustenance for our vegan.

    I at least like that you can be perfectly reasonable in our back and forth discussion. Breath of fresh air.

    How is to say that the animals are not benefiting from husbandry. The species is assured survival and the a relatively stress free life. Since living seems to be primarily about ensuring the survival of the species wouldn't you say that cows have been successful in that regard. They have spread far and wide and are still alive where many other animals are extinct. Who is to say that is any different than the ant/aphid or human/wheat plant relationships.
    It is sad that the measuring stick of our progress is the speed by which we distance ourselves from the natural world. Even sadder is that we will only see this when there is no nature left to save.

  5. #35
    RitaRose's Avatar
    RitaRose is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    3,952
    It's ludicrous to think our very existence doesn't have an impact on our environment. It's just a matter of how we want to manage it.

    Whatever we do - plant a field, pave a street, build a hospital, graze cattle - it's going to change our environment. I don't honestly see how planting mass quantities of soybeans makes life better for the animals in the surrounding environment.
    My sorely neglected blog - http://ThatWriterBroad.com

  6. #36
    magnolia1973's Avatar
    magnolia1973 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,073
    I at least like that you can be perfectly reasonable in our back and forth discussion. Breath of fresh air.
    Back when I was a vegan I would have thrown a vat of nutritional yeast "cheese" sauce at you and run off crying when you accused me of killing mice for my tofu.

    I'm not a vegan anymore, it's just an interesting argument.

    And umm,selective animal husbandry is not always good for the longevity of a species. Horses are a great example- breeding racehorses for the sole purpose of a fast horse at 3 years old has led to more fragile bones that shatter more easily.

  7. #37
    quelsen's Avatar
    quelsen is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Lexington Kentucky
    Posts
    2,972
    For some reason i cannot yet articulate ( working on it), this thread strikes me as a perfectly rational argument for reducing the human population. the only clear thought is, if you must eat a vegan lifestyle there are too many people.

    People eat food
    Food is what eats grasses
    Grasses eat sunlight.
    People cannot eat sunlight
    People cannot survive without proteins
    Food ( animals) convert sugar to proteins
    People eat food.
    Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

    Predator not Prey
    Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

    CW 315 | SW 506
    Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


    Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

  8. #38
    banananutmuffin's Avatar
    banananutmuffin is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    225
    <--- Former ethical vegan

    Trust me, it's not worth the debate. They will staunchly stick to their guns regardless of any logical argument you present to them. In addition, not ALL of their arguments are bogus. It does take more agriculture to sustain a meat-eating population than a vegetarian population, modern farming practices CAN be horribly inhumane, and some do realize that a perfect utopia is impossible and thus take a "do the least amount of harm" stance.

    Having been vegan, and now as a devout eater of meat, I can say this: It's better to live and let live, agree to disagree, and stay your own personal course.
    Female, 40 yrs old, 5', 120 lbs (post-pregnancy)
    Went Primal January 2, 2012!

    Paleo Cooking for Cavekids cookbook

  9. #39
    doghug's Avatar
    doghug is offline Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    U.S.A.
    Posts
    51
    Quote Originally Posted by jammies View Post
    But one grass fed cow that is killed can feed me for six months. The pasture that the cow is raised in is a protected area where thousands of animals can live out their lives in nature. In contrast, hundreds of animals are killed to clear land for soy, wheat, and corn fields. Those lands are silent and destitute. Poisons and traps are required to keep rodents, birds, and bugs out of the stored food. I would argue that hunted meat and pastured farm animals are the most ethical way to live.

    +100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000
    " If you truly love nature you will find beauty everywhere"

    - Vincent Van Gogh




    Primal Since January 2011

  10. #40
    Jiigigaw's Avatar
    Jiigigaw is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Lansing, MI
    Posts
    151
    Primal Blueprint Expert Certification
    I do one of three things:

    -Just don't argue and change the topic
    -Point out their dry skin, matted hair, early on-set wrinkles, and the huge bags under their eyes
    -Look at my watch and ask if they are going to be late for their all-natural Vitamin B12 injection.

    Hope these help.

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •