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  1. #2861
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    Thanks for the replies. Reading more has raised a couple questions for me.

    1. Do you have a link to the research about why one needs selenium for a month before supplementation, and not simply concurrently? I ask because I have been on the 'Wahl Protocol,' which recommends sea vegetables that include both iodine and selenium concurrently.
    2. I seem to be finding lots of conflicting information. Marks own article recommends approximately 1mg but he does mention people taking more. Other sources have conflicted. For my own part I calculated that I get 1.2mg fluoride in my water, and I do eat 2-3 cups of raw goitrogens per day. So, I feel like more than 1mg might be beneficial. Did you guys have the support of a doctor when taking 'detox' doses of iodine, or did you simply ramp up slowly?

    thanks again

  2. #2862
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    I don't have a link handy. But you can find quite a lot of reputable sources if you google it. The one over at perfect health diet includes citations, I believe.
    selenium iodine hashimotos - Google Search

    You can also see it by reading the biochemistry behind the iodine transport in the thyroid. It depends upon an enzyme (?) which requires selenium on two of the steps as far as I remember, and sodium through the sodium-iodide symporter. Any mismatch here may leave anti-tpo in the thyroid instead of quickly degrading it as should be done in healthy thyroids.
    That's why you'd ensure adequate selenium level before adding iodine... especially in the case of hashi's/graves.

    There is also quite a few different articles published under the title "Iodine, The Next Vitamin D?" Those articles usually describe the connection between iodine and selenium.
    If you look for posts by me in this thread I have posted one PDF a couple of times that has a flow chart over some of the interactions/requirements for successfully increasing iodine in regard to thyroid function.

    Edit: I found the chart (and the article is there too)
    Google Image Result for http://www.lmreview.com/images/sized/assets/images/article_images/Iodinechart_1-590x848.gif

    I started on my own. Here in Norway there is very little knowledge about thyroid function and iodine/selenium.... I have one of the best doc's available here and he recommended selenium (since selenium has been shown to decrease antibodies in several studies). He also did a 24hour urine iodine excretion test, but I didn't show especially low on that one. I've read Dr. Brownstein's book on iodine and now know that such a test isn't very reliable… and the low-level in Norway is VERY low.

    And I'd point out that I didn't ramp up, but started stright on quite a high dose... That after seeing this lecture by Dr. Brownstein.
    http://www.nutri-linkltd.co.uk/artic...t4/player.html
    Last edited by smgj; 06-12-2012 at 06:31 AM.
    Female, have Hashimotos w/lots of antibodies treated with Erfa + levaxin (Norwegian equivalent to synthyroid)

  3. #2863
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    Quote Originally Posted by asmitty View Post
    Thanks for the replies. Reading more has raised a couple questions for me.

    1. Do you have a link to the research about why one needs selenium for a month before supplementation, and not simply concurrently? I ask because I have been on the 'Wahl Protocol,' which recommends sea vegetables that include both iodine and selenium concurrently.
    2. I seem to be finding lots of conflicting information. Marks own article recommends approximately 1mg but he does mention people taking more. Other sources have conflicted. For my own part I calculated that I get 1.2mg fluoride in my water, and I do eat 2-3 cups of raw goitrogens per day. So, I feel like more than 1mg might be beneficial. Did you guys have the support of a doctor when taking 'detox' doses of iodine, or did you simply ramp up slowly?

    thanks again
    asmitty,
    The subject of iodine is LOADED with conflicting information. We don't do sea veggys - too much pollution. Follow the directions to ramp up slowly. See directions in the file Iodine References. Also see the chapter Selenium for great articles on selenium.
    http://tinyurl.com/iodine-references
    We avoid all the conflicting information by following just ONE doctor - Dr. Brownstein.

    Grizz

    http://tinyurl.com/iodine-references

  4. #2864
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    Detox reaction to iodine is usually blunted if you take the B2 100 mg's and B3 500mg's twice a day along with ample Sea Salt and preload with Selenomethionine 200 mcg per day for at least 10 days prior to longer term Iodine use. Oh. Studies have shown SeMC to be the superior form of selenium to supplement.

    http://www.iwantmyt3.com/pdf/specialreportfinal.pdf

    Here below is an interesting article on High Selenium Broccoli…!

    Selenium and Cancer

    t2t
    Last edited by t2t; 06-12-2012 at 03:55 AM. Reason: adding snippit of info iodine

  5. #2865
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizz View Post
    We avoid all the conflicting information by following just ONE doctor - Dr. Brownstein.

    Grizz

    http://tinyurl.com/iodine-references
    No Grizz,
    "WE" Dont. You do.

    Everyone needs to do there own research & then do what they believe is best for them
    Every time I hear the dirty word 'exercise', I wash my mouth out with chocolate.

    http://primaldog.blogspot.co.uk/

  6. #2866
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    Ok, So I appreciate all those links. Especially the link to the Perfect health diet; very useful article. I think in the long term I am not decided If I want to take more than 1-2mg per day. But, I believe it would be useful in the short term. I read the debates between Alan Gaby and Brownstein's group. I agree with both sides in some respects, but, even Gaby mentions high dose iodine/iodide can be useful in short term theraputic situations.

    I think I will take selenium for a period(undecided how long) and try to ramp toward 50mg iodine/iodide...unless I begin to go toward hyperthyroid. I was planning getting a thyroid panel before therapy, and shortly after I reach 50mg. I think iodine/iodide could be useful for detox/antimicrobial properties, and potentially thyroid issues....

    Two quick questions...

    How long would one stay at a 50mg dose in your experiences? I was thinking ~3 weeks?

    Also, do you guys have a resource on optimal T3/rT3 levels? I didn't see specific serum levels on the 'Stopthethyroidmadness site.' Just want another test beside BMR before I begin treatment.

    Again, thank you very much
    Last edited by asmitty; 06-12-2012 at 04:50 AM.

  7. #2867
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    Hi asmitty,

    I know that TSH levels for me and family was raised to 1.37 for me (hyper) and lowered to 1.19 for my wife (hypo) and 1.41 for my daughter (hypo) through the use of painting elemental iodine, 200 milligrams to 300 milligrams on various body parts in two months. 200 micrograms of SeMC was ingested daily also. I took selenomethionine for almost four years before changing to SeMC.

    But this is only part of the equation, even with the great Tsh levels my wife and daughters' Temperature readings were only 96.3 on average all day long. They used a glass non-mercury thermometer for 10 minutes before rising, no tv, no cell phones. Ideally ones temperature should be 98, 3 or so, Now with 45 milligrams of Armour my wife’s temperature upon rising is 98.1 and my daughter is on 30 milligrams o Armour and her temp is 98.4. They are laughing and have so much more energy WoW!

    Thank you Grizz, for the temperature thing as it relates to TSH, and especially T4, and T3. I only went with Armour for now because of insurance reasons. If Armour doesn’t work out in the future the pharmacist will do a compound for a T4 to T3 ratio of 2 to 1 and see what happens? A lot more expensive though.
    Last edited by t2t; 06-12-2012 at 06:27 AM.

  8. #2868
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    Joel Wallach considers a selenium deficiency combined with high intake of vegetable oils (salad dressings, margarine, cooking oils) as the "quickest route to a heart attack and cancer."

    Selenium is also essential for the production of estrogen sulfotranserfase which is the enzyme which breaks down estrogen. A deficiency of selenium can thus lead to excessive amounts of estrogen, which may depress thyroid function, and also upset the progesterone-estrogen balance.
    Selenium is essential for the production of testosterone. A deficiency seems to be involved in osteoarthritis. I've found studies linking selenium deficiency to alopecia (hair loss) and to degeneration of the knee joint (seen in Kashin-Beck disease).

    One study I read indicated that in experimental animals, selenium deficiency will increase T3 in the heart. This may be the reason that selenium deficiency causes heart palpitations and rapid heart-beat, which is common in thyroid disease.

    While we've seen that selenium deficiency will interfere with T4 to T3 conversion and lead to functional hypothyroidism (low T3 phenomenon), selenium plays another vital role in the thyroid as part of GPX. During the production of thyroid hormone, hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) is produced. H2O2 is important for the production of thyroid hormone, but excessive amounts lead to high production of thyroxin (T4) and also damage to the cells of the thyroid. GPX plays the extremely vital role of degrading H2O2 and thereby limiting hormone production and preventing damage to the thyroid cells. This seems to be the main way in which selenium protects the thyroid from sustaining damage which can lead ultimately to cancer.

    (Excess T4 perhaps that is why many people get worse, taking synthoids, which all of them are T4. Even Armour has close to a 4 to 1: T4 to T3 ratio.)
    t2t

    We've all heard that many doctors tell hypo patients, especially those with Hashimoto's thyroiditis, not to take iodine because it can aggravate their condition. The reason seems to be that selenium protects the thyroid gland from oxidative damage and this damage can increase significantly if iodine is supplemented. Taking iodine will increase thyroid hormone production and the production of H2O2 which damages the thyroidal cells. The lack of selenium prevents GPX from being able to protect the cells from this oxidative damage. While I doubt if most doctors realize why iodine should be restricted (it certainly seemed counter-intuitive to me at first), they have learned through experience that iodine can increase the thyroid damage in Hashimoto's. The information that selenium should be supplemented along with iodine is so new that most of them are unaware of it.

    Here's what we have: Studies have shown that if iodine is low, selenium must also be kept low to prevent the hypothyroidism from becoming worse (from increased DI-I and T4 depletion, as explained above.) So if both minerals are low, then the person is hypo and gets a goiter, but the damage to the thyroid is kept to a minimum. More severe problems happen when either selenium or iodine is high and the other is low. If selenium is high and iodine low, then T4 to T3 to T2 conversion is accelerated without T4 being replenished, leading to a worsening of the hypoT. If iodine is high and selenium is low, then H2O2 is not degraded by GPX. Since H2O2 drives the thyroid hormone production, then the thyroid over-produces thyroid hormone (Grave's hyperthyroidism), the thyroid is damaged from the oxidation by the H2O2, and the end result is that the damaged thyroid ultimately decreases activity and hypothyroidism results (Hashimoto's thyroiditis). This could explain the observed progression of Grave's to Hashimoto's.

    If a person has hyperThyroid, then it looks like taking selenium without iodine will result in a decrease in production of T4 (although there may be an initial transient increase in T4 to T3 conversion and hence higher T3). I would suggest to start with a small amount of selenium methionine (about 50 mcg) and gradually increase it. I cannot see any way that thyroid function can be normalized without selenium.

    Health Related Articles - Thyroid Health - Interactions Between Selenium and Iodine

    The source I originally found the below, on the web has since been removed. I find it interesting in 1911 before the big pharms and Government got involved, a big preventer of CANCER was proven through a double blind study to be very effective. t2t

    The earliest roles for selenium with cancer were as a treatment as early as 1911. Very promising results were achieved with Breast Cancer treatment in the 1920s. Somehow modern mediSin ceased using this very inexpensive option after the 1920s.
    Selenium research picked up again in the 1960s though primarily regarding cancer prevention. The results noted in this regard have been nothing short of astounding though these results rarely receive much fanfare and even less attention from mainstream medical and media sources.

    One double blind, clinical study (what modern mediSin advocates as the “gold standard” for studies) on selenium supplementation of more than 10 years duration with more than 1,300 subjects reported 63 per cent less prostate cancer, 57 per cent less colon cancer, and 48 per cent less lung cancer. Those are among the most common of all cancers. Total cancer incidence was more than 50 per cent less among selenium supplement users than non-supplement users. The form of selenium used was a 100 per cent Whole Food source.

    The results for cancer prevention with 100 per cent Whole Food source selenium far exceeded any ever achieved with any other substance before or since whether drug, radiation, surgery, herb or nutrient.
    Last edited by t2t; 06-12-2012 at 07:05 AM.

  9. #2869
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    Quote Originally Posted by t2t View Post
    Hi asmitty,

    I know that TSH levels for me and family was raised to 1.37 for me (hyper) and lowered to 1.19 for my wife (hypo) and 1.41 for my daughter (hypo) through the use of painting elemental iodine, 200 milligrams to 300 milligrams on various body parts in two months. 200 micrograms of SeMC was ingested daily also. I took selenomethionine for almost four years before changing to SeMC.

    But this is only part of the equation, even with the great Tsh levels my wife and daughters' Temperature readings were only 96.3 on average all day long. They used a glass non-mercury thermometer for 10 minutes before rising, no tv, no cell phones. Ideally ones temperature should be 98, 3 or so, Now with 45 milligrams of Armour my wife’s temperature upon rising is 98.1 and my daughter is on 30 milligrams o Armour and her temp is 98.4. They are laughing and have so much more energy WoW!

    Thank you Grizz, for the temperature thing as it relates to TSH, and especially T4, and T3. I only went with Armour for now because of insurance reasons. If Armour doesn’t work out in the future the pharmacist will do a compound for a T4 to T3 ratio of 2 to 1 and see what happens? A lot more expensive though.
    An alternative to armour (a lot of patients have trouble after the reformulation - with more cellulose, which make it more difficult to digest) is canadian Erfa. That brand have a good track record ... so far. You may also experiment with timing (I take mine in the at bedtime and do well on this) and with chew/don't chew (my doc reccomended to chew Erfa - the enzymes in the spit helps digesting the tablet better). And always remember: 30 min or more away from drinks and meals, 3 hours or more away from calcium carbonate supplements and 6 hours or more away from iron supplements...
    Female, have Hashimotos w/lots of antibodies treated with Erfa + levaxin (Norwegian equivalent to synthyroid)

  10. #2870
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    Quote Originally Posted by asmitty View Post
    Ok, So I appreciate all those links. Especially the link to the Perfect health diet; very useful article. I think in the long term I am not decided If I want to take more than 1-2mg per day. But, I believe it would be useful in the short term. I read the debates between Alan Gaby and Brownstein's group. I agree with both sides in some respects, but, even Gaby mentions high dose iodine/iodide can be useful in short term theraputic situations.

    I think I will take selenium for a period(undecided how long) and try to ramp toward 50mg iodine/iodide...unless I begin to go toward hyperthyroid. I was planning getting a thyroid panel before therapy, and shortly after I reach 50mg. I think iodine/iodide could be useful for detox/antimicrobial properties, and potentially thyroid issues....

    Two quick questions...

    How long would one stay at a 50mg dose in your experiences? I was thinking ~3 weeks?

    Also, do you guys have a resource on optimal T3/rT3 levels? I didn't see specific serum levels on the 'Stopthethyroidmadness site.' Just want another test beside BMR before I begin treatment.

    Again, thank you very much
    How long would depend entirely on the individual... For me I don't think I'd benefit from a long time on high dosage (I had no serious detox reactions and no track record of any great exposure to ny of the other halides), but I plan to stay at the "japanese level" for some time.

    I have no experience regarding rT3/t3, and the Norwegian mesurements are different from yours... so I hope somebody els may answer this? (I believe the ratio is the essential point? And I also believe there is a calculator on the STTM-site?)
    Female, have Hashimotos w/lots of antibodies treated with Erfa + levaxin (Norwegian equivalent to synthyroid)

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