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  1. #1
    kyk0's Avatar
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    High LDL with low triglycerides

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    Hello everyone,

    I am 28 years old and I train brazilian jiu jitsu 4/6 times a week. This is a quite competitive discipline, there are tournaments etc, for those unfamiliar with it, it's a bit like judo in terms of physical effort. Plus I walk about 15 kms every week on my commutes. Most of the other time I spend it sitting in front of a computer.

    I have been primal for about 8 weeks with NO cheat meals so far.

    I usually have 3 eggs (free range) in the morning, usually with some fruit (half a banana and some berries), or with bacon, or seldom with sausages.

    Lunch and dinner are usually meat and veggies. I have been only grass-fed beef, pork, lamb.

    I also eat a fair amount of nuts everyday either with the meals or as an afternoon snack.

    Since about 3 weeks I have been supplementing with D3 (2000IU) and Magnesium (600mg).

    I have NOT been supplementing with fish oil as I have had problem with its digestion (separate thread would be needed.. Symptoms have been nausea, diarrhea, dizziness, insomnia just with 2/4 pills. I will now experiment with the liquid kind and I also plan on taking 1g of vit C).

    My blood-work just revealed HIGH TC AND LDL:

    TC = 251
    Trigl = 62
    HDL = 54
    LDL = 186
    Glucose lev = 88.2

    Now I know the ratio HDL/tri seems fine (about 1) and that should be an important parameter. Still I don't like to have the LDL that high. I don't have any pre-primal exams but I'm assuming it was lower and the "doctor wants to see me".

    Apparently there are quite some people with primal diets with the same problem (i.e. see Perfect Health Diet High LDL on Paleo Revisited: Low Carb & the Thyroid )

    Some causes seem to be hypothyroidism, excessive low carb, stress..

    On monday I have to see my doctor and I guess the advice will be to cut fat. My plan is to ask for a lipid profile and try to see if there is anything wrong with my thyroid..

    Am I eating too much red meat? Too many eggs? Too many nuts? Not enough O3?
    Any advice?

    I have been REALLY surprised by these results as I feel much better than before eating primal.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    jammies's Avatar
    jammies is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyk0 View Post
    Hello everyone,

    I am 28 years old and I train brazilian jiu jitsu 4/6 times a week. This is a quite competitive discipline, there are tournaments etc, for those unfamiliar with it, it's a bit like judo in terms of physical effort. Plus I walk about 15 kms every week on my commutes. Most of the other time I spend it sitting in front of a computer.

    I have been primal for about 8 weeks with NO cheat meals so far.

    I usually have 3 eggs (free range) in the morning, usually with some fruit (half a banana and some berries), or with bacon, or seldom with sausages.

    Lunch and dinner are usually meat and veggies. I have been only grass-fed beef, pork, lamb.

    I also eat a fair amount of nuts everyday either with the meals or as an afternoon snack.

    Since about 3 weeks I have been supplementing with D3 (2000IU) and Magnesium (600mg).

    I have NOT been supplementing with fish oil as I have had problem with its digestion (separate thread would be needed.. Symptoms have been nausea, diarrhea, dizziness, insomnia just with 2/4 pills. I will now experiment with the liquid kind and I also plan on taking 1g of vit C).

    My blood-work just revealed HIGH TC AND LDL:

    TC = 251
    Trigl = 62
    HDL = 54
    LDL = 186
    Glucose lev = 88.2

    Now I know the ratio HDL/tri seems fine (about 1) and that should be an important parameter. Still I don't like to have the LDL that high. I don't have any pre-primal exams but I'm assuming it was lower and the "doctor wants to see me".

    Apparently there are quite some people with primal diets with the same problem (i.e. see Perfect Health Diet High LDL on Paleo Revisited: Low Carb & the Thyroid )

    Some causes seem to be hypothyroidism, excessive low carb, stress..

    On monday I have to see my doctor and I guess the advice will be to cut fat. My plan is to ask for a lipid profile and try to see if there is anything wrong with my thyroid..

    Am I eating too much red meat? Too many eggs? Too many nuts? Not enough O3?
    Any advice?

    I have been REALLY surprised by these results as I feel much better than before eating primal.

    Thanks
    Was your LDL calculated or measured? If it was calculated, we should recalculate using the iranian forumula since your total cholesterol is over 250 and your triglycerides are under 100.

    ETA: Your LDL is 156.46 using the Iranian formula. http://homepages.slingshot.co.nz/~geoff36/LDL_mg.htm Which helps your ratios a bit. Thyroid problems will definitely muck up your lipids.

    If you are worried you could ask for VAP or NMR testing to see what type of LDL you have.
    Last edited by jammies; 12-09-2011 at 08:57 PM.

  3. #3
    kyk0's Avatar
    kyk0 is offline Junior Member
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    Yes, LDL was calculated with the "infamous" formula, and the Iranian one does give a little bit of a better number.

    I read Griff's post on cholesterol here (http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread4723.html p.s. great post)

    My ratios are:

    TC/HDL = 4.6 (ideal 5 or less)
    LDL/HDL = 3.4 (Friedewald formula) (ideal 4.3 or less)
    LDL/HDL = 2.9 (Iranian formula) (ideal 4.3 or less)
    Trig/HDL = 1.1 (ideal < 2)

  4. #4
    Adrianag's Avatar
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    My guess is doc will recommend statins. Leaky Gut or yeast or h.pylori or liver issues will also spike LDL.

  5. #5
    Edje Noh's Avatar
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    8 weeks is a pretty short time. I think HDL and triglycerides will improve over time.
    Also, why worry about high total cholesterol. There has been no scientific evidence to support the whole high cholesterol is bad fairytale.
    I wouldn't worry too much untill you get a VAP test done.

  6. #6
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    Unless your your parents died of a heart attack while they were in their 30's I wouldn't worry too much about your cholesterol at 28 years old...especially if you are in good shape and active.

  7. #7
    kyk0's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone for the comments.

    I have a couple of additional questions:

    1. How fast are changes in cholesterol related to diet?
    2. Anyone has heard/read/known anything about butter skewing the HDL/LDL ratio as opposed to say, coconut oil?

    3. I am not concerned over the cholesterol value per se, but as far as I understand, cholesterol develops as a "defense" mechanism, so there is something going on.

    I have NO intentions of taking statins, my plan is to lower butter intake (I have being consuming about 150/200g a week).

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    Ok, listen up

    LDL needs to be pattern A, fluffy, billowy kind. Individuals with triglycerides smaller/lower than 70 do NOT have small, dense LDL.
    Between 70-140 TG individuals need a test to differ fluffy pattern A from dense pattern B.
    Statins do NOT work on LDL particle size.
    Also HDL comes in different particle sizes, not all HDL is good. Some are risky, the particle size needs to be fluffy, not dense. An HDL reading of 80 with mostly small dense particle sizes is a disaster (in the process of being fixed)...
    So calling HDL 'good' is misleading.
    LDL fight bacterial, viral, fungal and parasitic infections. High LDL could mean you ate bacteria (food poisoning) and your body is fighting it off temporarily.
    Low LDL is associated with frequent infections such as a flu. You don't want your fluffy LDL low. You want high fluffy LDL, which of course will give you a higher number.
    LDL with oxidized particle = BAD.
    high LDL with healthy particle = GOOD.
    (The Cholesterol Myth)

    Low cholesterol readings is associated with high risk of cancer and early death.
    LDL binds and inactivates dangerous bacterial toxins and has beneficial influence on the immune system.
    LDL reading (mostly fluffy) above 160mg/l gives you a high immunity to infections like the flu.
    To determine true inflammation get a CRP test done.

    HDL is the shuttle that comes back with either small, dense or fluffy, healthy LDL. HDL = LDL on its way back. When LDL is low and HDL is high, most likely someone has currently NO infection and HDL is high because the person had plague build up in the arteries and it's being broken down and recycled.
    High HDL doesn't mean you are healthy, it just means you're breaking down plague. Which is good, but shouldn't be there in the first place, right?
    And, remember, particle size is what matters, nothing else! Not the total number of anything.

    Also if your digestion improved, that's because on PB the liver produces healthy amounts of cholesterol that's made into bile to digest fats!
    Without bile we would not be able to digest and absorb fats and fat-soluble vitamins like A,D,E and K. It is important for bone health! Retinol, vitamin D3, transforming minerals into bio-available minerals, e.g. rock minerals getting chelated through bile.

    High LDL builds new cells, repairs and delivers nutrients.
    Also, in winter cholesterol goes up, in summer cholesterol goes down. Cholesterol readings are different every day, at different times, each minute!
    Blood cholesterol goes up during dental treatment.
    LDL is a shuttle of cholesterol to the 'wound'.

    Accurate tests for detailed analysis of actual lipoproteins particle size:
    Liquid Chromatography, Gel Electropheresis, density gradient Centrifugation or NMR= Nuclear Magnetic Resonance.

    smaller HDL particles are less desirable and are actually risky
    smaller HDL particles are less protective (if at all)
    smaller LDL particles are big contributors to plague.
    Last edited by Issabeau; 12-10-2011 at 10:08 AM. Reason: Typos

  9. #9
    kyk0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Issabeau View Post
    Ok, listen up

    LDL needs to be pattern A, fluffy, billowy kind. Individuals with triglycerides smaller/lower than 70 do NOT have small, dense LDL.
    Between 70-140 TG individuals need a test to differ fluffy pattern A from dense pattern B.
    Statins do NOT work on LDL particle size.
    Also HDL comes in different particle sizes, not all HDL is good. Some are risky, the particle size needs to be fluffy, not dense. An HDL reading of 80 with mostly small dense particle sizes is a disaster (in the process of being fixed)...
    So calling HDL 'good' is misleading.
    LDL fight bacterial, viral, fungal and parasitic infections. High LDL could mean you ate bacteria (food poisoning) and your body is fighting it off temporarily.
    Low LDL is associated with frequent infections such as a flu. You don't want your fluffy LDL low. You want high fluffy LDL, which of course will give you a higher number.
    LDL with oxidized particle = BAD.
    high LDL with healthy particle = GOOD.
    (The Cholesterol Myth)

    Low cholesterol readings is associated with high risk of cancer and early death.
    LDL binds and inactivates dangerous bacterial toxins and has beneficial influence on the immune system.
    LDL reading (mostly fluffy) above 160mg/l gives you a high immunity to infections like the flu.
    To determine true inflammation get a CRP test done.

    HDL is the shuttle that comes back with either small, dense or fluffy, healthy LDL. HDL = LDL on its way back. When LDL is low and HDL is high, most likely someone has currently NO infection and HDL is high because the person had plague build up in the arteries and it's being broken down and recycled.
    High HDL doesn't mean you are healthy, it just means you're breaking down plague. Which is good, but shouldn't be there in the first place, right?
    And, remember, particle size is what matters, nothing else! Not the total number of anything.

    Also if your digestion improved, that's because on PB the liver produces healthy amounts of cholesterol that's made into bile to digest fats!
    Without bile we would not be able to digest and absorb fats and fat-soluble vitamins like A,D,E and K. It is important for bone health! Retinol, vitamin D3, transforming minerals into bio-available minerals, e.g. rock minerals getting chelated through bile.

    High LDL builds new cells, repairs and delivers nutrients.
    Also, in winter cholesterol goes up, in summer cholesterol goes down. Cholesterol readings are different every day, at different times, each minute!
    Blood cholesterol goes up during dental treatment.
    LDL is a shuttle of cholesterol to the 'wound'.

    Accurate tests for detailed analysis of actual lipoproteins particle size:
    Liquid Chromatography, Gel Electropheresis, density gradient Centrifugation or NMR= Nuclear Magnetic Resonance.

    smaller HDL particles are less desirable and are actually risky
    smaller HDL particles are less protective (if at all)
    smaller LDL particles are big contributors to plague.
    Thank you very much. I was already familiar with some of the things you wrote.
    My understanding though, is that if my LDL is high, hopefully it will be the fluffy type, but if it's high it is because it is "fighting" something? So I guess I have something to find out nevertheless if this is a "stable" condition (will see that at the next exam)

  10. #10
    Neckhammer's Avatar
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    Consider that at 251 and a KNOWN variance of up to 30 points from one day to the next you could very well be in the 200-240 range which has the lowest rate of overall mortality. That doesn't seem all that bad to me. Cholesterol is much like BP. You need to average multiple tests to get a valid number.

    Oh, and one other thing.....the accuracy of these tests like NMR for particle size are quite suspect at this time. So much so that (think 30-50%) that they may be fairly worthless from what I understand. Check out Chris Kressler for more on this.
    "Accurate tests for detailed analysis of actual lipoproteins particle size:
    Liquid Chromatography, Gel Electropheresis, density gradient Centrifugation or NMR= Nuclear Magnetic Resonance."
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 03-28-2012 at 02:23 PM.

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