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Thread: Chronic Cardio Increases Life Expectancy page 3

  1. #21
    G-Man's Avatar
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    Anecdotes about people dying during marathons are just anecdotes. People die doing lots of things...it just doesn't make the newspaper when you die on a hike.

    My question still remains...I have posted 3 studies now that show CC is correlated to longer life. I can't find one that suggests the opposite. Does anyone have one? Mark, are you out there?

  2. #22
    iniQuity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-Man View Post
    My question still remains...I have posted 3 studies now that show CC is correlated to longer life. I can't find one that suggests the opposite. Does anyone have one? Mark, are you out there?
    My question still remains why does it matter so much, what are you scared of? get out there and do what you like to do.

    I should really just stay out of these threads. My apologies, I hope you find the studies you seek, though I can't imagine what you stand to benefit from them at all.

  3. #23
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    The number one primal forum on the internet, and nobody can come up with even one study?

    That is not exactly...

    ...encouraging.

    If it's a question of faith, that's fine, we all "just believe" all kinds of things. But I was under the strong impression there was an actual data-based rationale to this.

    @ iniquity - without actual data, doing LTH over CC then becomes no more logical or believable than choosing Edgar Casey or Scientology. It becomes religion, not science. And that may be fine for some folks, but it's not going to be fine for (many) others.
    Last edited by DeeDub; 12-10-2011 at 10:05 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dado View Post
    studies can go to hell, have you ever seen aerobic athletes? they are ugly and weak, rail thin and frail. it's no way to live a life.
    Apparently you haven't been to the Hawaii Ironman.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDub View Post
    @ iniquity - without actual data, doing LTH over CC then becomes no more logical or believable than choosing Edgar Casey or Scientology. It becomes religion, not science. And that may be fine for some folks, but it's not going to be fine for (many) others.
    what?!

    Both types of training affect the body very differently, not sure why you are drawing this comparison? Why do either/or? Lift, run, play, run some more, lift again, why restrict yourself one way or the other?

  6. #26
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    Studies have to be funded. Who is going to fund a study telling people not to run marathons?

    Doctor Kruse has a mechanism for how chronic cardio leads to earlier death: chronic cardio can deplete stem cells, so when they are needed in old age they are not there to replace senescent cells.

    This blog is pretty rough going, and has some slips in it (like "Hayslip limit" for "Hayflick limit"), but he makes some very good points:
    HOW TO REENGINEER HUMANS? - Jack Kruse

    He also suggests reading what Art DeVany has to say about chronic cardio.

    Here's part of the gist from Doc Kruse:

    Moreover, I use PQQ with an exercise to enhance the HIIT routines I recommend with after a successful leptin reset. This is why it is on my top ten paleo supplement list. When you understand this biochemistry you will understand why I do not recommend cardio much at all. And if you happen to be leptin resistant, doing any endurance exercise may cause you to “kill” your mitochondrial biogenesis signals by raising ROS signaling in your sugar burning mitochondria. If you continue to do this exercise while leptin resistant, you are inducing an apoptotic signal in your own mitochondria to force them into apoptosis. This in turn, makes you even more energy inefficient and you feel really bad. In other words, you are killing your own fat burning furnaces! This maneuver, in turn, depletes your stem cell supply. A stem cell supply is your eventual replacement cells. This is why we must make sure our exercise routines are hormetic and not apoptotic! People who over-train often talk about adrenal resistance issues that may develop. The real issue that plagues them is the loss of mitochondria and stem cells. They are killing their mitochondria off instead of stimulating new ones to form and this depletes their adrenal gland and kills their stem cells. I don’t believe many people have made this connection. I know Art DeVany has often and I applaud him for doing so.

    A key clinical sign of this occurring is when you have excessive pain with exercise and it persists into the next few days. Other signs to pay attention for are having no weight loss response to exercise at all. Many overweight people face this and few people can tell them why. This biochemistry is precisely why it happens. If you are killing off fat burning mitochondria you can’t lose weight! If you feel terrible after exercise this is another sign that you may need to back off. Most fit people do not understand this feeling because they get the exact opposite feeling of euphoria or a general sense of well being from most exercise. This is due to the endogenous opioid release that exercise usually causes in people who are leptin sensitive. When this occurs we generally call exercise a hormetic adaptation. This signal is not present in those who are leptin resistant.

    These adaptations may not be of consequence to you currently when you are younger, but the lifetime effects of this, will shorten your lifespan at the back end of your life when your closer to death or your cells Hayslip number is up! When you reach your Hayslip number for a particular cell line the end result is cellular senescence because there are no more left cells to divide. Why? Because your telomeres have become critically shortened. This is why short telomere lengths are associated with aging and degeneration and cancer regardless of chronological age. I have actually tested my own telomere lengths before I started my optimized life program. I have retested it about 6 months ago to see the difference. I went from a biologic age of 55 years 5 years ago to 29 years old today! So we can change change our biology if we know how! Do not give up!

    When telomere shortening occurs you get end stage degenerative conditions. This is why we see so many joint replacements and spine surgery in this country. This is precisely why we see much evidence in the literature of endurance athletes getting sick and dying early from neolithic diseases we would not normally expect. It is because they have exhausted their stem cells supplies. There are no cells left to replace the dying ones. This is why long time marathoners have signs of cardiac fibrosis in their hearts. It is also why we see many acute changes in runners heart after a marathon. We are placing huge metabolic stresses on our mitochondria in too short a time for proper excerise hormesis. A better way to approach exercise is to use it to hormetically stimulate your cells to make new mitochondria instead of killing them off. Low volume HIIT is essentially hormetic and stimulates your cells to make new mitochondria. PQQ is a big time adjuvant to doing just this. This is why it was included in my top ten paleo supplement list. The early data is quite compelling that using supplemental PQQ can often times give the same metabolic stimulus to the PPAR gamma and PGC-1α pathways as real HIIT exercise does! This is why many think PQQ is the exercise helping pill! Exercise-induced expression of PGC 1 alpha appears to enhance insulin sensitivity too. This makes sense because many reports link exercise to improvements in insulin sensitivity as well. Thus, it is likely that maintenance of up-regulated levels of PGC-1 alpha and PPAR- gamma are protective against diabetes and neurodegenerative disorders. Right now I see no reason not to consider it as an adjuvant of a paleo lifestyle and low volume HIIT. I use it myself and have several patients in my Optimized Life practice also using it.

    **************************************
    The attention-getting sentences: This is why long time marathoners have signs of cardiac fibrosis in their hearts. It is also why we see many acute changes in runners heart after a marathon. We are placing huge metabolic stresses on our mitochondria in too short a time for proper excerise hormesis.

  7. #27
    iniQuity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piano-doctor-lady View Post
    Studies have to be funded. Who is going to fund a study telling people not to run marathons?
    Not just that but it would always be suggestive, this stuff will vary from individual to individual. Many other factors and variables besides what exercise you did 40 years prior to your death will come into play. That's why I fail to see the importance or relevance in acquiring such studies. It just sounds to me like people who feel their lifestyles are on blast and need to be validated.

  8. #28
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    So in other words, there are theories about why chronic cardio is bad for our health - but no real studies to support the claim?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-Man View Post
    *snip*
    I appreciate your research, thanks. Actually, your posts are helping me clarify my question. Mark references studies that say that CC (can we call Chronic Cardio CC?) increases inflammation. This seems an obvious (and not necessarily bad thing) to me...

    When you do 300 pushups (not in a row ), what happens for the next 72 hours...you have inflammation in your pecs! (at least I do). When you go for a 2 hour run...wouldn't it make sense that there is inflammation in your heart/cardiovascular system (heart is a muscle) for 72 hours? But doesn't it make your heart stronger...just like your pecs?
    The inflammation is the crux of it, I think. We're not talking about muscular inflammation (which is best accomplished through heavy exertion such as sprinting or heavy weights), but joint inflammation as well as systemic issues throughout the body. Joint inflammation is painful- even inflamed knuckles can really cause a lot of quality-of-life problems for people. How many runners ice a knee or ankle after every run? How natural is that, really? Icing the body is a hack to reduce your body's response to a problem.

    By repeatedly subjecting your body to the problem that causes the inflammation, your body cannot heal itself properly, and the problem is likely to get worse instead of better.

    I guess what I'm getting at is that it may or may not have an effect on the length of your life, but it will definitely have an impact on the quality. I don't know how many people I've met in the Army with bad knees who think that knee pain and a need to ice them after every two-mile run and pop 800mg ibuprofen is normal for someone their age. I see my grandmother with knee problems, and she can't even get down into her own basement. My mom is headed that same way.

    The wikipedia page on inflammation has a lot of good explanations of what I'm trying to say here.
    Like this quote:
    "Chronic inflammation has been implicated as part of the cause of the muscle loss that occurs with aging.[40][58]
    or this one:
    "Chronic inflammation
    In acute inflammation, if the injurious agent persists then chronic inflammation will ensue. This process, marked by inflammation lasting many days, months or even years, may lead to the formation of a chronic wound. Chronic inflammation is characterised by the dominating presence of macrophages in the injured tissue. These cells are powerful defensive agents of the body, but the toxins they release (including reactive oxygen species) are injurious to the organism's own tissues as well as invading agents. Consequently, chronic inflammation is almost always accompanied by tissue destruction.

    "Tissue destruction" sounds bad, doesn't it?

    That wikipedia page also explains exercise-induced acute inflammation, which, as you mentioned, is part of the process for building muscle.

    I think you are restricting your search too much. While the studies you have provided do indicate a correlation to longevity and running, I think there are factors related to both that answer both of our points: loss of muscle due to aging, also called "sarcopenia". Old people that don't run will have higher rates of sarcopenia (as exercise is a way to reverse it) and, with lower muscle mass or strength, will have higher mortality rates.

    Here is a link with five studies regarding that:The Buck Stops Here: Muscles and Mortality
    Here's Google's scholarly articles on muscle mass and mortality: studies on muscle mass and mortality - Google Scholar

    And now that I'm almost done, here's how Mark explains "chronic" cardio:
    The fact is, our hunter-gatherer ancestors didnít ramp up their heart rates significantly for over an hour every day, and I donít think we should either. They walked at a very low level of exertion, burning almost entirely stored fats. Once you get into the zones where less fat is burned and where thereís a big dependency on glucose to fuel muscles, your body goes into a less efficient mode of fuel oxidation. There are biochemical costs associated with this shift. Your muscles and liver can only hold 500-600 grams of precious glycogen (stored glucose) at any one time, which means about 2 hoursí worth for the best trained individuals and less for most people. That means that to come back and work out hard the next day requires at least 600 more grams of carbs every day. Thatís just too much glucose and insulin to deal with every day.

    I donít recommend pushing this limit or even approaching it. Why bother? This kind of training (and diet) raises cortisol levels, increases oxidative damage, systemic inflammation, depresses the immune system and decreases fat metabolism. About the only thing good it does is improve cardiac muscle strength Ė and even then you get too the point of diminishing returns fairly quickly.
    My understanding of it is this: "chronic" cardio basically means causing excessive stress to your body over long periods of medium exertion. The details of what this does are listed and I'm sure you can find the studies that support it. Whether this causes decreased longevity is irrelevant to me, because by avoiding the excessive joint and systemic inflammation of long-distance running, I can be fit, maintain muscle mass as I age, and be free of inflammatory pain. If you choose to run long distances in a manner that avoids those problems (or you really like the pain), then go for it. I don't want any more damage to my knees than I've already got.

  10. #30
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    Where does that "fact" abut hunter gatherers come from? Tribes like the Masai cover literally dozens of miles a day, much of it running. If that isn't "chronic cardio", what is?

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