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  1. #201
    oxide's Avatar
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    I see what dboxing is getting at. The argument has progressed from calorie-in-minus-calorie-out CW vs. Primal to one of the finer points of Primal. We can all agree that if those calories had come from sugar instead of fat, then cutting the sugar would either make weight loss faster, or cause no weight gain at all.

    But what if somebody has already cut all the sugar out and is already primally trained to burn fat as fuel, i.e. all other things being equal. Does the equation then convert to weight loss = FAT calories out minues FAT calories in? In other words, if you give up 12 cups of bulletproof coffee* do you lose an additional pound of fat? Or does our metabolism automatically ramp up to burn whatever fat we feed it?

    Mark and others seem slide around this question by arguing that this is moot point: that our stomachs and brains are leptins become so satisfied by fat that we just don't feel like eating more, that is, we self-prevent eating excess fat calories. The Bulletproof exec cites his experience, where he consumed enough to yak butter in two years to gain 400 lbs or so but didn't. Maybe it was all the walking in the mountains? I don't know. The calories-out part of the equation is still a mystery.



    ---------------------
    *3500 calories/ pound of fat divided by 12 cups BC at ~300 cal/cup.
    BC cal count: 2 tbsp ghee (250 cal) + 1 tsp coconut oil (50 cal)
    5'0" female, 43 years old. Started Primal October 31, 2011, at a skinny fat 111.5 lbs. Low weight: 99.5 lb on a fast. Current weight: skinny-fat 106.5 lbs because of sugar cheating.

    MY PRIMAL: I (try to) follow by-the-book primal as advocated by Mark Sisson, except for whey powder and a bit of cream. I aim for 80-90 g carb/day and advocate a two-month strict adjustment for newbies. But everybody is different and other need to tweak Primal to their own needs.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxide View Post
    I see what dboxing is getting at. The argument has progressed from calorie-in-minus-calorie-out CW vs. Primal to one of the finer points of Primal. We can all agree that if those calories had come from sugar instead of fat, then cutting the sugar would either make weight loss faster, or cause no weight gain at all.

    But what if somebody has already cut all the sugar out and is already primally trained to burn fat as fuel, i.e. all other things being equal. Does the equation then convert to weight loss = FAT calories out minues FAT calories in? In other words, if you give up 12 cups of bulletproof coffee* do you lose an additional pound of fat? Or does our metabolism automatically ramp up to burn whatever fat we feed it?

    Mark and others seem slide around this question by arguing that this is moot point: that our stomachs and brains are leptins become so satisfied by fat that we just don't feel like eating more, that is, we self-prevent eating excess fat calories. The Bulletproof exec cites his experience, where he consumed enough to yak butter in two years to gain 400 lbs or so but didn't. Maybe it was all the walking in the mountains? I don't know. The calories-out part of the equation is still a mystery.



    ---------------------
    *3500 calories/ pound of fat divided by 12 cups BC at ~300 cal/cup.
    BC cal count: 2 tbsp ghee (250 cal) + 1 tsp coconut oil (50 cal)
    +1
    Excess fat calories have to be dealt with. What happens to them? If you say they are burned, then doesnít such burning come at the expense of burning existing body fat? Again, what happens to those calories? If the thought is that it doesnít matter because they keep you satiated, that means you are consuming less at some other time. In other words, a trade-off. So, what would happen if you didnít have calorie laden coffee, and you still consumed less at some other time?

  3. #203
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    I think the excess calories come from a better-run body. If all your cells are finally fully healthy and acting appropriately shuttling fat to be used as energy, it realizes that it's bountiful in your body, so it keeps leeching from your stored fat. I do agree that there is a threshold where if you eat too much fat, you won't lose fat because the energy's coming from your food. But say, as an extreme example, you're really, really healthy and you burn 4,000 calories a day after healing the body from metabolic damage that was previously running at 2,000. If you were eating 3,000 calories, you would actually still be losing fat, although it would seem impossible because you were previously running at 2,000. If that makes sense.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by dboxing View Post
    Please explain how - again, with everything else being equal, you would not have lost more weight having a larger caloric deficit?
    You tell me. You're the expert.

    I've never played the calorie game. I've been at this for a couple years and have had phenomenal results (imo). I stuck with black coffee for a majority of the time. Since adding real butter and coconut oil to my coffee, I've only seen improvements. Fat loss, strength increases, focus, regularity, etc, etc.

    I'll chalk it up to the nutritional benefits of the grass fed butter that far outweigh any "calorie bomb".

    Maybe you should try it? It's good.

  5. #205
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    I just wanted to say that I made my first bullet-proof coffee this morning and ZOMG ITS CREAMY AND DELICIOUS! And filling as hell too!

    Although, blasphemy, I *did* make it with decaf because regular-caf coffee tweaks me the eff out (I found out through a personal-genomics test that apparently i have an allele that is super sensitive to caffeine) but the arguments that a lot of the negative effects of coffee are because of bad coffee intrigue me. Ill have to experiment more.
    "Since going primal, I've found that there are very few problems that cannot be solved with butter and/or bacon fat."

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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by healthy11 View Post
    I am female 35 yrs old and have 10-15 more lbs. to lose. I have been drinking 2 cups of bulletproof coffee (so a total of 4 Tbsp butter and 4 Tbsp coconut oil) and eating 3 eggs with another Tbsp butter for breaksfast and plus lunch and dinner and I have lost 1-2 lbs. this month.

    Maybe that's slow, but it's a loss. I keep wanting to cut down to 1 cup instead of 2, but it's just so good.
    The Bulletproof Executive is a 210# muscular, mountain climbing, type AA, freak of a man..... the average Joe/Jane primal drinking ~900 calories of 'coffee' a day and losing fat weight is intriguing me..... What percentage of your total daily calorie intake is BP coffee? 30-40%?


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  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by deepglades View Post
    You tell me. You're the expert.

    I've never played the calorie game. I've been at this for a couple years and have had phenomenal results (imo). I stuck with black coffee for a majority of the time. Since adding real butter and coconut oil to my coffee, I've only seen improvements. Fat loss, strength increases, focus, regularity, etc, etc.

    I'll chalk it up to the nutritional benefits of the grass fed butter that far outweigh any "calorie bomb".

    Maybe you should try it? It's good.
    Ah, then one should have how many per day? 5? 10? If adding butter and coconut oil to coffee, and again everything else is equal, provides so many benefits and is proportional to your improvement, why not have unlimited amounts?

  8. #208
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    Im going to try this tomorrow morning.

    Note: There is a big difference to how mct oil hits the body and coconut oil, especially for energy release. You do need to be careful because mct oil will evacuate you if youre not used to it.

  9. #209
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    Two is good for me. Coffee aint cheap these days. I could probably do 3, but I get a little blorchy after that.

    Quote Originally Posted by dboxing View Post
    why not have unlimited amounts?
    C'mon now. Don't be ridiculous. Why not unlimited amounts of spinach? Why not unlimited amounts of water?

  10. #210
    oxide's Avatar
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    Please calm down.

    There is a legitimate question here: Does Fat calories eaten - fat calories burned = weight gain?
    Or does fat burned adjust so that Fat calories eaten = fat calories burned no matter what?

    Remember this is for someone who is already full primal, eats very few carbs for energy, and is trained to be a fat burner.

    We've all been so busy getting over the CW grain hump that I don't think the fat cal question has come up yet. All the success stories are for people who eat the correct amount of fat -- they don't stuff themselves on fat. Now it seems some are adding BC on top of an already high-fat diet, effectively stuffing themselves with fat. Would that slow weight loss? This is certainly beyond me. Might be a good question for Dr. Eades...
    5'0" female, 43 years old. Started Primal October 31, 2011, at a skinny fat 111.5 lbs. Low weight: 99.5 lb on a fast. Current weight: skinny-fat 106.5 lbs because of sugar cheating.

    MY PRIMAL: I (try to) follow by-the-book primal as advocated by Mark Sisson, except for whey powder and a bit of cream. I aim for 80-90 g carb/day and advocate a two-month strict adjustment for newbies. But everybody is different and other need to tweak Primal to their own needs.

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