Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11

Thread: LDL, HDL, cholesterol, T4, T3, TSH ... conflicting advice page

  1. #1
    greentree2's Avatar
    greentree2 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    13

    LDL, HDL, cholesterol, T4, T3, TSH ... conflicting advice

    Primal Fuel
    I was prescribed statins a couple of years ago because of slightly high LDL and total cholesterol and horrendous family history of heart disease at a young age, specifically death from artherosclerosis. I stopped taking statins about four months ago because of reported dangers and I didn't like how I felt on them. Since stopping my LDL went up from 105 to 179, total cholesterol went up from 240 to 259, HDL actually went up a little from 65 to 68, triglycerides are stable at 30. Fasting glucose dropped nearly 30 points from 97 to 70.

    I see a number of different doctors. Two have gone so far as to say that I'm killing myself if I don't start statins again. One doc said that since statins were introduced in America, death from heart attack decreased by 30%. Is this really true? One other doc said that they think statins are over-prescribed. A fourth said they're dangerous and nobody should take them.

    I don't want to die, obviously.

    How do I sort this out?

    As an aside, I had my thyroid disabled by radioactive iodine two years ago to treat Graves disease. Despite increasing doses of Thyroid replacement drugs, my TSH is still high and T4 is also just slightly high.

    I've been semi-primal for five years, strictly primal for just the last two weeks and feel better than I have in years.
    Last edited by greentree2; 11-16-2011 at 03:23 PM.

  2. #2
    prodistat's Avatar
    prodistat is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    144
    You seem to be doing okay. What matter more than the total numbers are the types of cholesterol/chylomicrons that you have, and their ratios. When people say "cholesterol," what they're really talking about are chylomicrons. Cholesterol is a waxy substance that's used for various cellular things. Fat and waxy stuff doesn't mix well with water. In order to move fat and wax around the body, it has chylomicrons. It turns out that we can separate these particles out with a blood test and then report on the amount of cholesterol. Yay!

    LDL = "cholesterol" (really chylomicrons which contain triglycerides, FFAs, cholesterol, etc) being sent out from the liver.
    HDL = "cholesterol' coming back from your cells. HDL is just LDL where the cells have pulled the fat and cholesterol from the chylomicron and now it's smaller and more dense. Hence, "high-density lipoprotein."

    LDL can be Type A (fluffy puffy), Type A/B (mixed) or Type B (small-dense and oxidized). You want lots of Type A and little to no Type B.

    Anyway, what does this matter to you? Get a VAP or NMR test and it will tell you what kind of LDL you have. If it's Type A, then you're fine. Tell your doctor to stuff-off. If it's all type B, then you need to work on your diet. If your triglycerides are high (which they're not), it means that your insulin levels are high and that you need to drop your carbohydrate intake.
    Prodistat
    Poke it quickly, with a stick.

  3. #3
    greentree2's Avatar
    greentree2 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    13
    How do I get a VAP or NMR test?

  4. #4
    ciep's Avatar
    ciep is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Barneveld, NY
    Posts
    533
    Quote Originally Posted by greentree2 View Post
    How do I get a VAP or NMR test?
    Just ask your doctor for one. A VAP test (or NMR test) is just a cholesterol test that's more specific than the standard ones most people get. VAP or NMR tests will give you exact figures for your HDL and LDL as well as the exact breakdown of your LDL (how much is Type A and how much is Type B).

  5. #5
    ciep's Avatar
    ciep is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Barneveld, NY
    Posts
    533
    By the way, your current figures really aren't bad at all. Your HDL is nice and high and your trigs are nice and low. I say get the VAP test and see what type your LDL is. If it's predominantly Type A, then I'd say you've got nothing to worry about.

    If there's a high percentage of Type B in the mix then you should probably look at your diet/lifestyle and start re-evaluating.

    I don't know if/how you exercise but that makes a difference to your lipid profile as well.

    Good luck!

  6. #6
    egger's Avatar
    egger is offline Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    40
    For thyroid: Always have TSH, Free T4, Free T3, and Reverse T3 (RT3) measured. TSH only indicates what you body is telling you thyroid to do and is not a good measure of what is happening downstream. T4 is "storage" and is not directly useful to your cells. You body is supposed to convert it to T3 for use. For various reasons, you body may convert to much T4 to RT3 (which is chemically almost exactly the same as T3) instead of T3. RT3 can bind to your cells without doing the job of T3. If there is to much RT3, it can make you hypothyroid at the cell level because all the wholes are already plugged. Treatment is to starve the RT3 not taking any T4 and taking T3 only until you've cleared the RT3 and figured out how to fix the condition - or forever. If you don't have an RT3 problem, you may want to try a combination T4/T3 product like desiccated porcine thyroid as some people need the T3 supplementation (even the many doctors think they should only prescribe T4 products for various reasons).

    Check out http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com...eds-dont-work/ and www.thyroid-rt3.com

  7. #7
    prodistat's Avatar
    prodistat is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    144
    Quote Originally Posted by prodistat View Post
    You seem to be doing okay. What matter more than the total numbers are the types of cholesterol/chylomicrons that you have, and their ratios. When people say "cholesterol," what they're really talking about are chylomicrons. Cholesterol is a waxy substance that's used for various cellular things. Fat and waxy stuff doesn't mix well with water. In order to move fat and wax around the body, it has chylomicrons. It turns out that we can separate these particles out with a blood test and then report on the amount of cholesterol. Yay!

    LDL = "cholesterol" (really chylomicrons which contain triglycerides, FFAs, cholesterol, etc) being sent out from the liver.
    HDL = "cholesterol' coming back from your cells. HDL is just LDL where the cells have pulled the fat and cholesterol from the chylomicron and now it's smaller and more dense. Hence, "high-density lipoprotein."

    LDL can be Type A (fluffy puffy), Type A/B (mixed) or Type B (small-dense and oxidized). You want lots of Type A and little to no Type B.

    Anyway, what does this matter to you? Get a VAP or NMR test and it will tell you what kind of LDL you have. If it's Type A, then you're fine. Tell your doctor to stuff-off. If it's all type B, then you need to work on your diet. If your triglycerides are high (which they're not), it means that your insulin levels are high and that you need to drop your carbohydrate intake.
    Whoops, got that wrong. Lipoproteins are the generic carrier of fats and cholesterol, and chylomicrons are a subset of them.
    Prodistat
    Poke it quickly, with a stick.

  8. #8
    choppedliver's Avatar
    choppedliver is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    111
    If you have such family history, then you should get your VAP or NMR test to assess your genetic risk. Also get inflammation markers tested. You do realize that if you had your thyroid disabled through radioactive iodine, your risk of CVD goes up, especially for arrythmia. Just google.

    Lots of people may comment on your levels of TC and components thereof, but many don't understand the risk profile of someone with a family history of CVD or someone with your condition. The orbit of such knowledge is usually limited to the particle size, which may be overriden by genetic and other factors particular to your situation.

    You have to assess this risk yourself and your doctors may be more in tune with this than you realize. Who has died from at age? Both sides of the family? What do you mean by atherosclerosis? Atherosclerosis is the underlying condition which leads to stenosis or thrombosis. Did your family members undergo angioplasty? Or did they actually die from heart attacks? How's your BP and pulse? Most people die from thrombosis caused by inflammatory conditions; very few actually die from atherosclerosis which leads to stenosis. You need to get a better grip of your history and risk factors.

    The genetic components can be sorted out through VAP (LP(a), Apob-100). You need to focus on nflammation markers like CRP, ferritin, IL6, and specific CVD markers like fibrinogen and homocysteine. But your hyperthyroid condition is a curveball. I would find a good endocrinologist to treat my thyroid and hormones first; then I would ask for a referral to a good cardiologist who understands genetic issues, inflammation markers and hyperthyroidism. It's too much for a GP or an internist to treat your conditions. For you, rote Paleo answers may not apply, lest you become complacent about your risk, which is much higher than anyone with similar cholesterol levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by greentree2 View Post
    ... horrendous family history of heart disease at a young age, specifically death from artherosclerosis.
    Last edited by choppedliver; 11-16-2011 at 08:44 PM.

  9. #9
    greentree2's Avatar
    greentree2 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by choppedliver View Post
    You do realize that if you had your thyroid disabled through radioactive iodine, your risk of CVD goes up, especially for arrythmia. Just google.
    Isn't this only true if you are not treated for the resulting low thyroid condition?

    Quote Originally Posted by choppedliver View Post
    Lots of people may comment on your levels of TC and components thereof, but many don't understand the risk profile of someone with a family history of CVD or someone with your condition. The orbit of such knowledge is usually limited to the particle size, which may be overriden by genetic and other factors particular to your situation.
    Exactly. That's the concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by choppedliver View Post
    You have to assess this risk yourself and your doctors may be more in tune with this than you realize. Who has died from at age? Both sides of the family? What do you mean by atherosclerosis? Atherosclerosis is the underlying condition which leads to stenosis or thrombosis. Did your family members undergo angioplasty? Or did they actually die from heart attacks? How's your BP and pulse? Most people die from thrombosis caused by inflammatory conditions; very few actually die from atherosclerosis which leads to stenosis. You need to get a better grip of your history and risk factors.
    Atherosclerosis was listed as the cause of death on the autopsy report so that's all I have to go by. There was no known previous history of heart disease: no heart attack ever, no intervention except BP meds. The ME (medical examiner) specially said the person did not die of a heart attack.


    Quote Originally Posted by choppedliver View Post
    The genetic components can be sorted out through VAP (LP(a), Apob-100). You need to focus on nflammation markers like CRP, ferritin, IL6, and specific CVD markers like fibrinogen and homocysteine. But your hyperthyroid condition is a curveball.
    I'm not hyperthyroid. I'm hypo right now. See the first post for data.

  10. #10
    greentree2's Avatar
    greentree2 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    13
    Primal Blueprint Expert Certification
    Thank you everyone for adding your opinions here. I got some of the test done to clarify my situation and I'm now more confused.

    Tests showed:
    1. LDL I have is the light fluffy kind even though the total number is 179
    2. Scan of carotid arteries showed no plaque
    3. However, scan of carotid arteries showed inter-media thickness in 75th percentile.

    I understand that results number 1 and 2 (good LDL profile, no plaque) are good. But thickening in carotid walls is a risk factor for hear attack and stroke.

    Does anyone know exactly what it means if I have no plaque but increased carotid IMT?

    By the way, my doctor prescribed this:
    1. Mediterranean diet
    2. Cut out saturated fat
    3. Cut out sugar
    4. Increase exercise

    I'm already doing 3, not doing 1 and 2 obviously, and do 4 but could do more.
    Last edited by greentree2; 12-12-2011 at 02:36 PM. Reason: add stuff

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •