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Thread: Vegan vs. Paleo common ground

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  1. #1
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    Vegan vs. Paleo common ground

    So I have been mostly primal for a few years now and have had great results. At the same time I have seen friends achieve excellent weightloss results using Vegan or similar approaches. Being open minded, i try to question everything if given a chance and having seen people successful with vegan plans and primal/paleo plans despite their radical differences I began to wonder how this happened.

    After reading up on Veganism it seems that the common denominator is simply decreased fructose in the diet. In terms of weight regulation not necessarily muscle composition it seems that Fructose may be the driving factor. If you look at the China study what do all the slimmer countries have in common? Low fructose, they may be higher carb as is asian countries emphasizing rice but the fructose is low in nearly all cases. This seems to fit the French paradox as their carbs tend to be in grain form and not overly reliant on fructose. This also seems to explain the global epidemic as when exposed to western food they receive more and more glucose. Regardless to whether a country was lean based on higher fat or carbohydrate diets, the increase of fructose seems to be cause of the problems as it hormonally signals more fat storage than a similar amount of glucose. Any thoughts on this theory?

  2. #2
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    Fructose is also increased a lot when you had teh frankenfoods and processed foods. The more fat they remove the more sugar has to be added...plus it helps shelf life. Americans are addicted (as was I!) ok forever recovering.

    How do your vegan's overall health feel like?

  3. #3
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    I don't know, but I'm not sure that the French get most of their carbs in grain form - they do eat a lot fruit and vegetables. But at any rate, I think the French eat a fairly low-carb diet in general. Yes, they have bread and pastry - but they eat far smaller amounts and they eat a ton of animal fat (this is my just my understanding, so obviously facts would be better here....yay, science).

    On an unrelated note, one of the things that I've always thought is interesting thinking about French and Chinese cuisines is that many regions in both countries emphasize using the entire animal, and presentation of the food is more likely to include bones/heads/shells. Mmm...animals that look like animals...

    Edited - I just noticed that you are from France, sorry. So, would you say grain or carbs are heavy in the average French diet (i.e., 300 grams per day like in the SAD)?
    Last edited by SweetPickles; 11-08-2011 at 06:12 AM.

  4. #4
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    Ja, the fructose is the worst thing, the coconut is the best.

    You know, this is a coincidence. The vegetarians are generally lunatics with bleeding hearts. There are also the ones that eat only fruit, and the ones that eat the soy.

  5. #5
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    I think there are many different means to reaching your goals/getting healthy. The reason people feel great after doing paleo is not because they are not eating grain and legumes, but because they are eliminating processed foods and sugars. I believe that good health and weight lose can be achieved with many different diets/lifestyles, as long as the diet you are on eliminates crap and gets you eating whole foods.

  6. #6
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    "Weight loss" is a funny word. Actually, I hate the word. I don't give a damn about "weight", and neither should you. And here's why:

    1.) Primal weight loss - the high protein intake and protective saturated fats and low toxin carbohydrates promote body recomposition. The diet is highly protective of muscle tissue, connective tissue, bone density and increases testosterone, which typically leads to muscle growth even without exercise. "Weight loss" is often unreliable because body fat is being displaced by muscle, so you're getting stronger and leaner while showing less "weight" being lost on the scale.

    2.) Vegan weight loss - poor sources of amino acids, low protein intake, high levels of toxins from heavy grain consumption, soy, legumes, vegetable-based oils and "meat" and "dairy" substitutes and massive sugar consumption lead to "weight loss" as well. This diet promotes the loss of muscle tissue, connective tissue, bone density and emaciation due to vitamin and mineral deficiencies, particularly B vitamins. You may lose more "weight" on the Vegan diet, especially since overall calories are kept low from a lack of nutrient-dense foods (it's difficult to eat 3,000 calories worth of lettuce, bananas, potatoes and broccoli vs steak and eggs), but realize that fat is protected better than muscle on this lifestyle. This leads to the "skinny fat" condition.

    So, what would you prefer? To lose 30 pounds on the Vegan diet where 15 pounds lost are muscle and bone with only 15 pounds of fat loss? Or would you rather lose 20 pounds on the Primal/Paleo diet where 25 pounds lost are fat and 5 pounds of muscle are gained? Who truly had the better results? Since going Primal/Paleo around 9 months ago and completely changing the way I eat and exercise, I've lost around 12 lbs while adding 100 lbs to my deadlift, 100 lbs to my squat, 20 lbs to my benchpress and God only knows how much to my legs. My muscle mass and bone density is clearly much higher, so what was my real fat loss?

    It's funny how looking at yourself in the mirror every day skews your reality. I look pretty much the same in my mind today as I did when I started, but when I compare pictures from 9 months ago versus today...ho-lee shit. The difference is incredible. This has truly been the best decision of my life.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 11-08-2011 at 07:22 AM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  7. #7
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    Also, more to choco: i didn't intend to debate this in terms of muscle/lean mass retention or gain as obviously the higher protein/amino acid diet would win out. More of a commentary on my interpretation of the global paradoxical diet imbalances incorectly highlighted by the china study and my thought on the matter. Seems most of the CW people only care about fat loss and although I am more concerned with composition and a big fan of your refeed threads, that isn't the focus of my thought/question

  8. #8
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    It would seem fructose may be the key in identifying the biggest cause of the obesity epidemic. The thing is, paleo/primal isn't necessarily about weight loss. It's about living a healthy lifestyle. Eliminating added sugar may be the best change one can do for their health, but I'm convinced eliminating grains (particularly gluten-containing grains) is, more often than not, equally important.

  9. #9
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    ChocoTaco369 - "2.) Vegan weight loss - poor sources of amino acids, low protein intake, high levels of toxins from heavy grain consumption, soy, legumes, vegetable-based oils and "meat" and "dairy" substitutes and massive sugar consumption lead to "weight loss" as well. This diet promotes the loss of muscle tissue, connective tissue, bone density and emaciation due to vitamin and mineral deficiencies, particularly B vitamins. You may lose more "weight" on the Vegan diet, especially since overall calories are kept low from a lack of nutrient-dense foods (it's difficult to eat 3,000 calories worth of lettuce, bananas, potatoes and broccoli vs steak and eggs), but realize that fat is protected better than muscle on this lifestyle. This leads to the "skinny fat" condition."

    I'm glad that the paleo diet worked so well for you, but from your comments it's clear that you're basing your assertions on opinion only and not actual fact. Veganism does not cause massive muscle and bone loss when implemented correctly by educated individuals. It doesn't automatically equate to low protein intake and overconsumption of grains either. That might be how the handful of hipsters who suddenly decide to go vegan in their twenties with little to no prior research do it, but most of us who go meatless and/or dairyless are genuinely healthy and know better. Even as a gluten free vegetarian most of my protein is sourced from organic non-gmo soy, green veggies, nuts and seeds, and beans and legumes. Small amounts of it come from cheese, eggs, and single servings of heart-healthy sprouted (gluten free of course) whole grains like quinoa, amaranth, sorghum, and certain rices, but that's really just the tip of the iceberg. Meatless diets work fine as long as you do it right; there needs to be a balance of lean proteins, low GI carbs (except for right before you workout when you need high GI carbs), and healthy fats for sure, but that's any diet. I strategically plan my meals so that I never go more than four hours without eating, every meal is constructed around complex carbs and at least 15 grams of protein with some monounsaturated fats, I get 25 to 35 grams of protein in my pre-workout meal and 30 to 50 post-workout, and I get slow digesting protein before bed to help keep hgh levels high. Following this simple gluten free, whole foods, vegetarian diet plan and mixing it with 4 days lifting and 3 session of HIIT per week, I managed a major body recomp. That's to say I lost fat and built muscle at the same time, without meat. So my point is, just because you didn't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done. People need to stop perpetuating the entirely false stereotype that veganism and vegetarianism are bad for you.
    Last edited by VeggieLove; 09-18-2013 at 07:48 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by VeggieLove View Post
    People need to stop perpetuating the entirely false stereotype that veganism and vegetarianism are good for you.
    And fixed.

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