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Thread: Validity of Paleo/Primal? Wheres the evidence? page 2

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by primalrob View Post
    are the body builders wrong? not necessarily, but it really depends on what you're after. the primal blueprint is about achieving your optimum potential, or homeostasis. those who follow this lifestyle are usually more interested in overall health and well being than they are getting huge muscles with single digit body fat (though, that is a goal for some). macros are definitely important for that particular goal, but the PB is about way more than that.
    This. There's a good percentage of us who don't ever want to measure our "macros" again. We want to use intuition and logic to find homeostatis simply and naturally.

  2. #12
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    "Don’t fall for the crap that people are peddling on message boards, in magazines or on TV. Get your shit in order, and get your training in order. Start kicking ass, and take out the crap that doesn’t matter. Start doing and believing in the stuff that works, and do it today and forever. You want science and studies? Fuck you. I’ve got scars and blood and vomit." -Jim Wendler

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    There is a huge difference between talking about how to do something and getting it fucking done.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waskydiver View Post
    But, that is the problem... Each one of us is a personal entity, not the aggregate of individuals used to form a scientific study.

    I suspect that much of the science of conventional wisdom is true for the collective. But what is true for the collective is not necessarily what is true for me, you, or quite possibly anyone else.

    Since each of us ARE individuals, we need to individually evaluate the science, and determine what works for us, and what does not work for us.

    I am having great sucess with a primal diet. My mother is having great sucess with a conventional diet. Which one of us is wrong? Well, I think most scientific studies will say that I am wrong. Does that mean I should abandon that, which is working for me in favor of a method that I have proven does not work for me?
    I think that you have misinterpreted me. I meant that people shouldn't treat science as thought it was a personal entity, as if it was like a person and bad things that certain scientists do reflect poorly on all of science. It just doesn't work that way. It's a method.

    I support self-experimentation, especially with lab testing. Many things are going to benefit or harm everyone to some degree, but there is variation in that. When starting out and when suggesting things to others it is best to go with what the evidence supports is best for the majority.

    We should be very careful not to give too much credence to our own subjective appraisal, though. People simply aren't objective about what is good for them, and oftentimes they will make excuses for the ideas and practices that they have fallen in love with, until it is too late. Oftentimes we can't even see a subjective difference or a difference on basic lab tests, yet there is a big difference going on that will manifest itself in many months. Few people taking vitamin K2 feel any different, but the long-term benefit is staggering.

    How does your mother know that a primal diet wouldn't be even better? "Great success" is so nebulous. This is just an excuse to not have to disagree on things. Everyone's an individual, wheeee, no arguing. I think that you have a little too much faith that conventional wisom is actually correct and you are just an outlier. I think that your mother's fate has much to do with that. If you read the article by Loren Cordain that I linked to, you will see that all of the specific paleo trials have fared better than the alternatives. I also think that much of the scientific literature is poorly interpreted, by dogmatists and biased researchers and authors. Nutrition really is a bitch, it's so complicated, don't think that because the conclusion section of a study says something that it was really demonstrated by the actual experiment.
    Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

    Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stabby View Post
    How does your mother know that a primal diet wouldn't be even better? "Great success" is so nebulous. This is just an excuse to not have to disagree on things. Everyone's an individual, wheeee, no arguing. I think that you have a little too much faith that conventional wisom is actually correct and you are just an outlier. I think that your mother's fate has much to do with that. If you read the article by Loren Cordain that I linked to, you will see that all of the specific paleo trials have fared better than the alternatives. I also think that much of the scientific literature is poorly interpreted, by dogmatists and biased researchers and authors. Nutrition really is a bitch, it's so complicated, don't think that because the conclusion section of a study says something that it was really demonstrated by the actual experiment.
    It's easy: She doesn't particularly like primal fare, while she does like foods from more conventional diets.

    I love my ribeyes. She'd rather have a bowl of oatmeal (yuck).

    If I tried to get her to eat a primal diet, she would fail. She would cheat. She would be miserable.

    Likewise, try to get me to follow a conventional diet, and I'll have none of it. I'll constantly be sneaking in a bowl of captin crunch instead of the oatmeal, and I will fail.

    So, for her, a diet crafted of whole grains, fruits and vegies, with lean meats sits very well. She can stick to it, and it is working for her.

    With me, I scoff at the 80/20 "rule". I can be 100% faithful to primal nutritional principals without hardly thinking about it.

    Here's another example: There is a lot of evidence to support that resistance training is much better for you than "chronic cardio".

    So, for my first 4 or 5 months primal, I "tried" resistance training. Hated it. Always hated it. Always will hate it. So, I ended up spending my exercise time on the couch.

    Recently, I started taking up running again: Long distance running. The most chronic of the chronic cardio. I'm now up to 15 miles per week, and am hoping to be building towards marathon training, with a 30-40 mile per week base building towards perhaps 60 miles per week.

    Oh, the horror.

    Which is better for me, resistance training, which I will not do, or chronic cardio, which I will throw myself into? Science can't answer that question. BUT, I do use science to try to keep myself from being injured and to understand how the cortosol, glycogen depletion and low carb diets might be working against me so that I can make the appropriate modifications.

    Also, I am also using science for objective appraisals (lab tests). The results have been PHENOMINAL. A1C and LDL dropped like a rock. HDL skyrocketing. Trigs about 3 times lower.

  5. #15
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    Quality of life and sustainability are indeed important, and do contribute to bodily health as well. Sounds like she's fine, then. "I just can't live without Burger King for lunch" might be different. I've heard it before! Sheesh. Make your own burger FFS.
    Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

    Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waskydiver View Post
    Here's another example: There is a lot of evidence to support that resistance training is much better for you than "chronic cardio".

    So, for my first 4 or 5 months primal, I "tried" resistance training. Hated it. Always hated it. Always will hate it. So, I ended up spending my exercise time on the couch.

    Recently, I started taking up running again: Long distance running. The most chronic of the chronic cardio. I'm now up to 15 miles per week, and am hoping to be building towards marathon training, with a 30-40 mile per week base building towards perhaps 60 miles per week.

    Oh, the horror.

    Which is better for me, resistance training, which I will not do, or chronic cardio, which I will throw myself into? Science can't answer that question.
    would it really matter if science could answer that question?
    Primal Chaos
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waskydiver View Post
    Which is better for me, resistance training, which I will not do, or chronic cardio, which I will throw myself into? Science can't answer that question.
    Yes, it can. You do each and see which benefits you more. That's science!

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgoodness View Post
    Yes, it can. You do each and see which benefits you more. That's science!
    I did do each. I got virtually no benefit from resistance training because I could find no motivation to do so. I got great benefits from running because I really enjoy it.

    Is that science? Perhaps. But, all that it is measuring is my subjective desire to carry out those exercise programs. The results are of no use at all to anyone else except myself.

    I could also conduct other scientific experiements on myself. Perhaps I might find that eating raw slugs might be beneficial. Or, perhaps maintaining a life of celebacy. There may be studies that indicate that living naked in some savanna somewhere might be beneficial to my health.

    But, none of the scientific studies in the world that might indicate that living naked in the savanna, eating raw slugs might be beneficial are of any use to me AT ALL. It is just not something that I am willing to do.

  9. #19
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    All the science in the world can't help someone who refuses to use that science to their benefit.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waskydiver View Post

    Since each of us ARE individuals, we need to individually evaluate the science, and determine what works for us, and what does not work for us.

    I am having great sucess with a primal diet. My mother is having great sucess with a conventional diet. Which one of us is wrong? Well, I think most scientific studies will say that I am wrong. Does that mean I should abandon that, which is working for me in favor of a method that I have proven does not work for me?
    +1

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