Calories - do they really count? page 2

[BarbeyGirl]

I think krisssi is right that low-carb tends to decrease appetite...but in my experience, that switch took nearly 6 months. I think part of it was learning to trust my body not to go into screaming-hunger mode if I didn't eat as much/often as I used to before discovering the PB.

[Tarlach]

[quote]

The amount of food energy in a particular food could be measured by completely burning the dried food in a bomb calorimeter, a method known as direct calorimetry. However, the values given on food labels are not determined this way, because it overestimates the amount of energy that the human digestive system can extract, by also burning dietary fiber. Moreover, not all food energy eaten is actually resorbed by the body (fecal and urinal losses). Instead, standardized chemical tests or an analysis of the recipe using reference tables for common ingredients are used to estimate the product's digestible constituents (protein, carbohydrate, fat, etc.). These results are then converted into an equivalent energy value based on a standardized table of energy densities.
</blockquote>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_energy


It&#39;s all a bit furry and a lot of guesswork, as no two people process the same food the same way. You can use the calories as a rough guide, but I wouldn&#39;t rely on calculating anything very accurately.


At the end of the day you need to find out what works for you. You can&#39;t get an accurate BMR number from any chart.


To lose weight you need to either consume less calories or change the way you handle calories (raise your BMR).


Some people are happy to punish themselves and cut calories (and possibly add in a lot of cardio). Most people just can&#39;t sustain it (esp. as they get older). You also lose muscle this way as your body is effectively in starvation mode.


Others have great results raising fat intake and lowering carbs to change BMR. You can also IF or lift weights to enhance this (and build muscle). You then rely on satiety to control calorie intake. Again this requires willpower to cut carbs very low and lots of people can&#39;t manage it.

[krisssi]

Tell me, Tarlach, how does our BMR change as we raise fat and cut carb intake?


And where can I read a reliable source that says there can be a substantial difference in the caloric value of food between different people?


I&#39;d be very interested to read about this.

[Tarlach]

[quote]

Reduction in carbohydrate intake rather than total calorie deprivation appears to be the determinant factor. These alterations in thyroid function are believed to reduce the catabolic activity of the organism and thus to conserve energy in the face of decreased calorie intake.
</blockquote>


http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-frame.htm


What you eat, how much and when all affects hormone levels.

[Sharonll]

krissi, have you read Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes? I can&#39;t imagine a better resource. Right now I&#39;m just finishing chapter 17, which discusses the differences in BMR between lean and obese people. The book is packed with information about carbs, fats, protein, the studies that have led to CW, the controversies... it is a fascinating, though dense read. I highly recommend it.

[krisssi]

Yes, it affects hormone levels...


But where does it say that the BMR is raised by cutting carbs and raising fat?


And where does it say there&#39;s a substantial difference in food caloric value between people?


The quote you just posted seems to be suggesting that by cutting carbohydrates, alterations in thyroid function cause a decrease in catabolic activity in order to conserve energy? That would mean that the BMR would be lowered, right?


Btw the link you just posted doesn&#39;t contain the quote that was in your message?

[SerialSinner]

[quote]

Conclusions

1) Research involving dietary manipulations must consider and control the nutrientto-energy ratio of the diets and total caloric intake.

2) The composition of the diet with respect to the proportion of the major nutrientsprotein, fat, and arbohydrate has a profound and variable effect on the efficiency of food energy use and ultimately on the results of an experiment.

3) The level of energy intake relative to maintenance can significantly influence energy expenditure and hence the net energy value of diets and foods.
</blockquote>


http://bit.ly/5sIpUz (PDF)


Also (and even though I hate quoting myself):
[quote]


according to ATZ:

calories in - metabolic energy use = energy out.

If energy out = (-ve), fat loss occurs.

if energy out = (+ve), fat gain occurs.


This is always correct if we analyze metabolic snapshots.


If we alter the composition of an isocaloric diet, and then make a before/after comparison, the above equation doesn&#39;t hold, because as the time gap between before/after measurements increases, the change in diet composition will affect the "metabolic energy use" variable.


Because of the above, it is possible to claim that, after going primal, some of us can have a similar or even higher energy intake than before going primal, and lose fat.


ATZ seems to assume that the above is not possible, and that diet composition has no significant impact on the "metabolic energy use" variable. Hence our disagreement.
</blockquote>


http://bit.ly/5OeaOO

[krisssi]

I have yet to see anything that says the BMR (which means basal metabolic rate, the amount of calories you burn during rest) is raised by cutting carbohydrates and raising fat?


There&#39;s a graph in your first article that shows that heat production decreases linearly when the percentage of fat in the diet is increased...


Then there&#39;s another graph in it that shows that resting metabolic rate is enhanced more after a carbohydrate meal than a fat meal?..


Lets keep it clear that I think lower carb and higher fat is the way to go, but I believe the weight loss benefits are more related to decreased appetite and insulin rather than a higher metabolic rate, which according to the articles you just sited, decreases slightly on a higher fat diet.

[kongluirong]

So what I am getting from SS is that calories count differently depending on the type of diet one is on? It doesn&#39;t count as much (but still kind of does) when one is on PB and it&#39;s almost everything when on CW diet?


Then how come I wasn&#39;t fat when I ate conventionally? I ate a cup of noodles everyday for lunch for three years (before I got sick of it). Bread and cereal was a staple for me as well. Yes I was active as a dancer and martial artist, but that wasn&#39;t every day of the week, only two and not at the same time. I guess I never counted my calories at that point of time. But I ate a lot of sugar, pizza and the general stuff teenagers eat. I also LOVED potatoes and brownies. Perhaps it&#39;s because I didn&#39;t eat when I was full? A lot of people seem to have trouble in the overeating department, using food as comfort. But my dad and stepmom, who seemed to eat the same as me, are on the heavier side. My dad stands on his feet all day, but my stepmom doesn&#39;t, so I guess the lack of exercise would do it.

[BarbeyGirl]

@kongluirong -- Youth. When we&#39;re young, our systems work with fewer flaws. Insulin resistence hasn&#39;t set in (though the foundation is being laid). Often, muscle mass is greater (though it doesn&#39;t have to be that way, as many believe!) which leads to higher metabolism. You make a good point about not overeating, too.