Whey Refeed? page

[colejames]

I understand the entire concept of a carb refeed for active individuals and those who are trying to get to very low body fat levels. However, I hate carb ups since I feel sluggish, bloated, and disgusting after them. Since the science behind it is to raise insulin, which resets leptin, can't we just eat other insulogenic foods that are low-carb to have that same effect? For example, I know that whey protein spikes insulin, in fact, it spikes insulin even more so than some carbohydrates. Furthermore, I know that some high protein meals can also have similar insulin-generating effects so long as fat is minimized.

To this end, in my ideal version of a refeed/leptin-reset day, can't I just consume higher amounts of whey, and perhaps other insulogenic low carb foods such as dairy etc to also spike insulin and reset leptin without having to suffer the consequences of a large carb intake?

[Chaohinon]

Why not just have a moderate amount of carbs on a normal day? 1 or 2 large potatoes or yams won't even push you over the 150g mark, and will leave you with more starch and less fructose than a diet of non-starchy veggies and fruits.

[colejames]

But your missing the point. I don't tolerate carbs well. This isn't a weight loss issue since I'm already very lean. I have a BMI of 21. This is a matter of my health, and my body is telling me it does not like starches.

The reason I still want to do reed is because I'm in the process of a body recomp and maintaining my leptin levels will be beneficial.

[ChocoTaco369]

But your missing the point. I don't tolerate carbs well. This isn't a weight loss issue since I'm already very lean. I have a BMI of 21. This is a matter of my health, and my body is telling me it does not like starches.

The reason I still want to do reed is because I'm in the process of a body recomp and maintaining my leptin levels will be beneficial.

No offense, but I think you're missing the point. The point of the refeed is to use carbs. Using whey protein is empty, liquid protein. It also gives you a big glucagon response, which mitigates the insulin spike. Don't use protein for a refeed. No one does it for a reason.

If you feel like crap after a refeed, you are doing them wrong. How many carbs are you taking in? Your refeed should match your activity level. If you're not lifting big and heavy, you shouldn't be doing refeeds or you're overdoing them. If you don't tolerate carbs well, you should not even be considering a refeed. Your BMI is meaningless. What matters here is your body fat level. What is your body fat? I have no feeling of lag or tiredness after a refeed, but I work out heavy and I'm insulin sensitive with an A1c of 4.8 and a fasting glucose of 79-80. Keep that in mind as you continue your journey.

[colejames]

No offense, but I think you're missing the point. The point of the refeed is to use carbs. Using whey protein is empty, liquid protein. It also gives you a big glucagon response, which mitigates the insulin spike. Don't use protein for a refeed. No one does it for a reason.

If you feel like crap after a refeed, you are doing them wrong. How many carbs are you taking in? Your refeed should match your activity level. If you're not lifting big and heavy, you shouldn't be doing refeeds or you're overdoing them. If you don't tolerate carbs well, you should not even be considering a refeed. Your BMI is meaningless. What matters here is your body fat level. What is your body fat? I have no feeling of lag or tiredness after a refeed, but I work out heavy and I'm insulin sensitive with an A1c of 4.8 and a fasting glucose of 79-80. Keep that in mind as you continue your journey.

Glucagon does not "mitigate" insulin, its actions merely counteract those of insulin - so while insulin is shuttling things to be stored, glucagon is at the same time shuttling things out to be used. This doesn't somehow change the fact that insulin is released and thus, leptin is also raised. I wouldn't go so far to dismiss whey as merely some empty liquid protein, it has served the bodybuilding community and the health conscious well for a long long time. True, it is not the most primal source of nutrition, nor is it very high in other nutritive values, but its not like this is some staple of my diet. In fact, I hardly use it at all, period. I'm talking about strategically using whey only for refeeds, just as you use carbs for carb-ups.

I have read numerous sources and guides on the carb reefed, from this site to bodybuilding sites and I have followed them to a T, primal style. I carb up with sweet potatoes, white rice, yams, and sometimes honey mixed in with my tea. I have an 10% body fat last time I checked. I take in about 300g of carbs during my carb up, which is about the average that I found from numerous calculators based on how much my liver and muscle mass can hold. As you can see, it is not the quality of carbs that my body rejects. I think it is simply the fact that 90% of the time, my primal diet makes my body run on fat and when I carb up, it sends my body into confusion which causes bloating, discomfort, etc.

Thanks for the comments though, good food for thought for sure.

[ChocoTaco369]

Glucagon does not "mitigate" insulin, its actions merely counteract those of insulin - so while insulin is shuttling things to be stored, glucagon is at the same time shuttling things out to be used. This doesn't somehow change the fact that insulin is released and thus, leptin is also raised. I wouldn't go so far to dismiss whey as merely some empty liquid protein, it has served the bodybuilding community and the health conscious well for a long long time. True, it is not the most primal source of nutrition, nor is it very high in other nutritive values, but its not like this is some staple of my diet. In fact, I hardly use it at all, period. I'm talking about strategically using whey only for refeeds, just as you use carbs for carb-ups.

Whey protein is great for recovery because it shuttles amino acids to your muscles for repair at lightning speed. I get injured very quickly when I stop taking whey. I've tried removing whey in lieu of whole food protein and I was a wreck. Whey definitely has its purpose, but boosting leptin isn't one of them. If whey protein was effective at this, it would be popular in the bodybuilding world, but I've never heard of a single person doing this. The glucagon response is very important as it quickly imparts that catabolic state. Remember, the leptin boost isn't immediately following the insulin spike - it is many hours later, often overnight. The insulin spike from whey does not last like the insulin spike from complex carbohydrate, so it stands to reason that you're not going to get that leptin boost, and as an added negative, you're not going to have muscles ready to bust out another big workout, either.

I have read numerous sources and guides on the carb reefed, from this site to bodybuilding sites and I have followed them to a T, primal style. I carb up with sweet potatoes, white rice, yams, and sometimes honey mixed in with my tea. I have an 10% body fat last time I checked. I take in about 300g of carbs during my carb up, which is about the average that I found from numerous calculators based on how much my liver and muscle mass can hold. As you can see, it is not the quality of carbs that my body rejects. I think it is simply the fact that 90% of the time, my primal diet makes my body run on fat and when I carb up, it sends my body into confusion which causes bloating, discomfort, etc.

Thanks for the comments though, good food for thought for sure.

How much fat are you taking in during the refeed? Are you limiting your fat to 50g and under? Are you performing the refeed for only one day, or are you stretching it over 48 hours? Maybe you'd benefit from a prolonged carb-up period, like a weekend. Or, maybe you'd do better with a higher fat/lower carb refeed. Maybe cut your fat only a little bit and throw in a couple sweet potatoes immediately after your workout or as close to bed as possible. Are you cycling your calories as well? You should be eating around maintenance calories on refeed days and taking in a deficit on non-refeed days. The leptin boost may not be enough if you are constantly eating at a caloric deficit since you may be crashing your metabolism from the constant deficit. How about sleep? Are you getting enough? This is my Achilles' Heel for sure. There are so many possibilities. Just snowballing here. I feel your pain and I'm trying to figure this out, too.