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  1. #211
    jammies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcadav View Post
    I think I'll risk giving my personal 2 cents.

    Everyone voices their view/beliefs based on their life experience. People who are young/healthy/lean and have never faced health, psychological or physical issues believe the way to optimize health/physicality is to adhere to PB dietary guidelines and LHT to the max.

    Older/other/ heavier folks, especially those that have faced some challenges. realize things MAY not be as cut and dry as the "young/lean/healthy" group believe/declare as an absolute. Their experience is valuable because they have experienced "bumps in the road" that can help other people, who find themselves stuck on "the bump", get over/through the obstacle.

    Then there are people such as myself (and I believe Griff), that face definite/specific/unique challenges. Those challenges can be psychological, physical or a combination. I believe we have things to offer. And, I believe Griff was trying to provide useful information when he started this thread by providing a study that supported the idea that some people can be healthy even though they are obese.

    If someone's experience/path can be looked at with an open mind it just might help other people facing "challenges" realize that if people who weighed 400 pounds ( and losing 100+ pounds is beneficial any way you look at it)or have a limiting physical disability, like my cerebral palsy, can benefit from implementing at least some PB principles, then they too can find success.

    Dismissing or bashing others' beliefs, struggles, experiences, and/or path not only hampers learning/growth, it IMO, indicates a smugness, false superiority, and insecurity. It also puts people off because if they haven't had the same experience or think the same way then their views are seen/dismissed without merit.

    Case in point:
    1. Sprinting isn't real if done on a treadmill.
    It's real for me- someone with CP. It's most likely real for someone else with challenges.

    2. Just eat less, exercise more-- you have to lose weight.
    Did that, gained 60 + lbs. Never mind my hormones went to hell and when optimized I was able to lose the weight.

    3. Keep at it, get everything dialed in, and a 6 pack is possible.
    As someone that carried 7 pounds twins I know this isn't always possible, without "help". I think Kate Goselin and Octomom might agree.

    MY overall point--just because something works for you ,or a group of people, it doesn't mean it's an absolute. People come here to learn, grow, and relate. Being "right", close minded, judgmental and/or just a pain in the a** hurts everyone including and, IMO, especially the person with the voice.

    Griff, if you are still reading, please know that you have things to teach, give and learn. Don't let other people's close minded biases keep you from giving and growing.
    Thank you for posting this - I agree with every word. You have reminded me that there is kindness and intelligence still to be found on this forum.

    My understanding is that Griff has left the MDA forum as a result of the abuse he's received on this thread. It is beyond sad that a person who has taken himself from 400 lbs in a wheelchair with horrible arthritis and migraines to someone who is overweight, but pain free and feeling great could be SHAMED out of a this place by ignorant bigots. Griff's perspective was an asset to this forum.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFH View Post
    Sheesh, what an asshole. Must have struck a nerve. Another person to put on ignore!
    +1

    I admire people who work hard and get shit done. I don't admire people who accomplish things but use it belittle other people, and insinuate that the opinions of those who haven't had the same success aren't as valid. I think accountability is great, but using appearance as a gauge of credibility is going to make you a victim of the next Ted Bundy.

    I'm about 15 pounds overweight at this point, and the rest of this weight is really, really hard to get off. I get the sense that most of the posters saying that 'fatties are just making excuses and not trying hard enough' are men. I don't think I am fit, but I have healthy habits (primal diet, regular exercise, limit alcohol, try to sleep well, meditation to deal with emotional issues), and I have very good health markers (doctors are always so surprised at my blood pressure, and ask me if I exercise). At this point I'm more worried about dying early due to the harm caused by stress and negativity and being an angry person in general, not due to 15 extra freaking pounds that I'm already aware make me extremely unattractive to most of the men I see every day.

  3. #213
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    Sue
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    We're not talking about 15 extra pounds!
    Everyone wants health but most also want a nice slim body. Nothing wrong with that.
    Griff stated he is okay staying at 290. A lot commented they wouldn't be happy at that weight.
    No-one is making fun of fat people.
    Last edited by Sue; 08-18-2011 at 09:04 PM.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sue View Post
    We're not talking about 15 extra pounds!
    Everyone wants health but most also want a nice slim body. Nothing wrong with that.
    Griff stated he is okay staying at 290. A lot commented they wouldn't be happy at that weight.
    No-one is making fun of fat people.
    That's 100# more than needed. I'm fat, but only 40#, by my measure, and I will happily make fun of any fat person that thinks they're hot shit and good to go, or has the stones to insinuate they're healthy.

    I'll give a helping hand to anyone who is overweight, and isn't self goatse'ing and realizes it needs to be fixed. No two ways about it, self delusion is strong stuff, and frankly, 100# is self delusion.

    It's like the drunk that wants one more and can stop whenever he wants.
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  5. #215
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    That's 100# more than needed.
    how do you come to this conclusion?

    my guess is that you simply believe that anyone who weighs over 200 lbs "shouldn't" rather than taking into consideration the fact that people are different.

    To give an example of weight displacement or redistribution, read Batty's various writings. She shows her "before" at 150 lbs and her "after" at 150lbs. There are many blogs of other women who are roughly the same, but perhaps at 170 lbs or so. Now, how is it that this woman could be -- say 5 ft 5 inches, and "should be" using BMI crap and put her at 125 lbs. She must, obviously, "be fat" and "has 25 more lbs than needed!"

    Or, there's something else at play.

    And i'm two inches taller than her, right? And other than when I was overweight (from emotional eating, then from pregnancy), I cannot gain enough muscle to be 150 lbs. I just can't. Typically, when i'm lifting weights at my heaviest ever, I'm about 130 lbs -- which is still technically *underweight* using BMI. I "should" weigh more (135). And, as far as I can tell, there's no way I can get myself up to 150.

    Now, my sister, who is the same height, when she's at her fittest -- lifting weights, etc -- tends to be around 155-160 lbs. She's the same height, and she's working out and what not, so she "should" weigh 135. But she weighs, what -- 20-25 lbs more than that. Why?

    Oh, I know.

    Different body types.

    Some bodies have light bones, small muscles, and a lot of tendon. these people tend to be underweight, slim, and tiny. they might be very tall, as well. They tend to be very tight people. and, when really underweight, they are at risk for all kinds of troubles -- such as collapsing a lung for no good reason other than they were standing there and their lungs collapsed (happened to a dear friend of mine).

    Some bodies are middle -- average muscle size, average bone density, and tend to be fairly lean without even trying. particularly when their diet is really clean (like paleo, but most of them can run on coffee and cigarettes if need be). these body types "tend" to fit their weight-to-heigh charts spot on without a lot of effort. And when they work out, they have high responsiveness, easy weight loss, and come to the "perfect weight" pretty easily.

    some bodies are larger -- large dense bones, lots of muscle, big, big muscles. lots of responsiveness to lifting weights. extra layer of fat on the bodies as well. It's usually a pear or apple shape, too, and has "soft" shoulders (looks that way generally). these people also tend to have height, but come in all kinds of sizes.

    And most people are mixes. My sister is a meso-endo (second and third type). I happen to be an ecto-meso (first and second type). I suspect that batty is an endo-meso as well, just based on her shape and muscle responsiveness.

    THere are true endomorphs in the world, and I've worked with many of them. I've taken people through 150 lb weight losses -- via yoga and general lifestyle stuff -- and most of them come to a balanced weight loss that often looks "overweight" even when it is in perfect balance. One of my gal friends and clients went from 306 to 155. She's still technically "overweight" but she's a great weight and happy with it and really has no intention of going lower (she may end up lower, but has no intention to go there). we just don't know at this point.

    one of my clients started with me at about griff's starting weight. not quite as many health problems, but a lot. not a professional athlete or anything, either. he just started with some yoga. this lead to dietary changes (no processed foods, then basically south beach, which he still eats today), then cycling, which he really enjoys. It's not sprinty or competitive either.

    when he was down at 300 lbs, his doctor was really happy with his weight loss. he was off all of his medications, and everything was going well. but his doctor cautioned him to not loose too much weight, or think that he'll be a 190 lbs. The reason is because of his bones, muscles, organs, and so on.

    this guy's knee caps are about the size of my head. he's just got big, dense bones. and, he has muscle to match. lots and lots of muscle. and with this, a layer of fat. his doctor told him to consider another 50 lbs, and see how he felt.

    he went down to 250 lbs. and suddenly there were health problems. he was dizzy all the time, he was not feeling well, and just not comfortable. he had joint pain. it was just not right. he didn't feel well. With his doctor's help, he chose to gain some weight back. He did this with a combination of yoga and diet -- simply eating more calories and still south beach, and doing more strength movements in yoga (eg, handstands, etc). He now weighs 280 lbs.

    By your "calculations" he is an addict who needs to weigh 90 lbs less, and therefore deserving of your treatment of him.

    but by his experience, and his doctor's calculations, he is a healthy weight for his height and his body.

    So, painting everyone with the same brush really, again, just shows far more about you than it does about anyone else.

  6. #216
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    From the scientific literature and our current understanding of biochemistry, I don't think it's possible to be fat and "healthy."

    The researchers may have noticed positive health markers in obese individuals, but whether the quality of life of such obese individuals is the same as lean folk remains to be a mystery. The increased fat mass, however, is going to put too much strain on the joints, and that will obviously negatively affect the quality of life of such obese folk.

    Another thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that fat tissue is an ORGAN. Adipose tissue secrete hormones (other than leptin!) and regulate metabolic processes in the body. For example, I doubt this research looked into the hormonal health of these "healthy" obese folk because had they have done that, they would have found that ALL of them had high estrogen levels. As fat tissue increases, so does the aromatization of testosterone into estrogen, which is obviously a really, really bad thing for men and women alike. (Adipose Tissue: Fat Metabolism, Adipokines, Inflammation)

    I'd also like to note that the body, just like *everything* in the universe (except the expansion of the universe itself...) obeys the laws of thermodynamics. However, while you may be in a caloric deficit, you may only be losing lean mass and your body might even end up storing MORE fat because of your "messed up" metabolism. This, in my experience, is why most obese folk retain a caloric deficit (or claim to) and end up weaker than before and may end up even fatter. Another thing to consider is that "starvation" at a young age will negatively impact one's BMR as they age. That's why anorexic teenagers or those that are really skinny (but aren't considered anorexic) end up packing on the pounds as they get older -- it's because their metabolism is *damaged* and their BMR is extremely low (because their metabolism is damaged; large caloric deficits negatively impact the thyroid, and over a long period of time, will cause this low BMR).

    However, consider the OP is "healthy," he needs to actively try to lose the weight. I bet he'll find that losing the weight will be a piece of cake (hmm...) now that his health has improved. Primal foods are notoriously calorie dense (butter...butter itself can add 1-2k kcals to one's diet without even noticing it!), so try to cut down a little and it'll be really easy for you to lose weight (hopefully most of it is fat!).

    Good luck!

    @above: That's why BMI is a rought estimate. Ask any bodybuilder about BMI and he'll laught at you. Calculating body fat percentage by using calipers or any other "good" method is more accurate.
    Last edited by Tre; 08-19-2011 at 01:36 AM.

  7. #217
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    oh jesus effing christ.

    my husband is a body builder. when we applied for our immigration here in nz, his BMI put him into the obese category, btu the doctor wrote a note stating that he was healthy and lean, giving his body fat percentage as an element of that. So yes, I understand how effing stupid BMI is.

    the fact is, people keep missing the POINT.

    Bodies are different.

    Men and women, for example, carry different amounts of fat. Comparing "average leanness" or "grokiness" of men and women on the board -- and we'll exclude those who seek extremely low body fat leangains style -- will sit around 10% for men and 18% for women. Women, therefore, carry more adipose fat.

    Does this mess with their system? Does this mean they are fat, bad people who should be shamed into loosing more weight like men?

    The answer is no. Because women are different, and in order to function properly, we need more body fat.

    Lets go another step. A woman who is lactating vs a woman who is not lactating. When I was breastfeeding my son exclusively, I could not -- for the life of me -- loose the last 15 lbs of weight I'd put on. Now, don't get me wrong, i was vegetarian at the time and whatever, but I was eating a whole foods diet. I was exercising as before. And I would say my body fat was probably around 25% or more.

    I learned through my research that my pattern for where that weight was kept (shoulders, back, upper arms) is normal for some lactating mothers. apparently, the body holds onto it so that it can create milk from fat stores. hormones maintain the fat stores, and then also convert it into breast milk.

    Should I have been shamed into no longer feeding my son the best food possible? shamed into dieting and exercising more to loose the excess weight? both?

    Or, was my body doing *exactly* what it was supposed to do?

    And, using the examples above. My sister weighs -- when we are healthiest -- an average of 20-25 lbs more than me. Some of that is bone and muscle, but she is also carrying more body fat. She is healthier carrying around 24-25% body fat. She just is. Should she be shamed for being who she is? Should she be shamed into dieting more, exercising more (when, at the time, she was training grok-style and eating a calorie restricted, whole foods diet?) so that she can no longer be "fat?"

    The truth is, her body was health and doing exactly what it was supposed to be doing. Yes, she had more adipose fat than me, and yes, it functions as an organ, but when she got leaner, she would drop in immune function, drop in her energy levels, and overall, drop in her health. But at that point, when she had higher body fat, she was. . . OMG, healthier.

    Fat is a general term. Just about anyone can be called -- or call themselves -- fat. When I was working at one yoga studio in particular, *I* was the fat girl, and I was not fat. I was probably between 20 and 22%. A lot of the girls there -- who were hired based on looks -- were between 16 and 18% body fat. So, I was called "The fat yoga teacher." It was effing ridiculous. It was an attempt to shame me into loosing more body fat to be like others. But I had no desire to be 16% body fat.

    Obesity is a specific term. It means "Overweight plus Health Problems Due To Being Overweight." Morbid Obesity is "Overweight plus Health Problems Due to Being Overweight that Can Cause Eventual or Imminent Risk of Death."

    When the article posted talks about "fat people" -- it is likely that they are talking about "culturally fat" people -- you know, like that Fat Yoga Teacher at the studio? You know,t he fat one who was 20-22% body fat? Yeah, the Fat One.

    Or, like my Fat sister. Or my Fat husband whose BMI is through the roof because he lifts weights.

    Turns out that Fat is just a social term. Obese is another one.

    And to be clear, there are different body types for men, too, and different reasons -- healthful reasons -- why someone would maintain a given weight. I gave a case-in-point of my client, who is *HEALTHY* as a horse at 280 lbs, but instead, people would shame him to weigh less because of THEIR STUPID IDEAS about what OTHERS "should" be.

    Good lord. open the minds a bit!

    There is no one way to be. there's no one perfect height, size, weight, body fat percentage, or whatever in order to be healthy, to be primal, or to be a valuable, dignified human being deserving of common decency.

  8. #218
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    your client does "meathead" exercise-like stuff: cycling and yoga. Cycling may cause sweat.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcadav View Post
    I think I'll risk giving my personal 2 cents.

    Everyone voices their view/beliefs based on their life experience. People who are young/healthy/lean and have never faced health, psychological or physical issues believe the way to optimize health/physicality is to adhere to PB dietary guidelines and LHT to the max.

    Older/other/ heavier folks, especially those that have faced some challenges. realize things MAY not be as cut and dry as the "young/lean/healthy" group believe/declare as an absolute. Their experience is valuable because they have experienced "bumps in the road" that can help other people, who find themselves stuck on "the bump", get over/through the obstacle.

    Then there are people such as myself (and I believe Griff), that face definite/specific/unique challenges. Those challenges can be psychological, physical or a combination. I believe we have things to offer. And, I believe Griff was trying to provide useful information when he started this thread by providing a study that supported the idea that some people can be healthy even though they are obese.

    If someone's experience/path can be looked at with an open mind it just might help other people facing "challenges" realize that if people who weighed 400 pounds ( and losing 100+ pounds is beneficial any way you look at it)or have a limiting physical disability, like my cerebral palsy, can benefit from implementing at least some PB principles, then they too can find success.

    Dismissing or bashing others' beliefs, struggles, experiences, and/or path not only hampers learning/growth, it IMO, indicates a smugness, false superiority, and insecurity. It also puts people off because if they haven't had the same experience or think the same way then their views are seen/dismissed without merit.

    Case in point:
    1. Sprinting isn't real if done on a treadmill.
    It's real for me- someone with CP. It's most likely real for someone else with challenges.

    2. Just eat less, exercise more-- you have to lose weight.
    Did that, gained 60 + lbs. Never mind my hormones went to hell and when optimized I was able to lose the weight.

    3. Keep at it, get everything dialed in, and a 6 pack is possible.
    As someone that carried 7 pounds twins I know this isn't always possible, without "help". I think Kate Goselin and Octomom might agree.

    MY overall point--just because something works for you ,or a group of people, it doesn't mean it's an absolute. People come here to learn, grow, and relate. Being "right", close minded, judgmental and/or just a pain in the a** hurts everyone including and, IMO, especially the person with the voice.

    Griff, if you are still reading, please know that you have things to teach, give and learn. Don't let other people's close minded biases keep you from giving and growing.
    Nice post, and I agree pretty strongly with most of what's been said here. Griff has made some of the more helpful posts that exist on these boards(See: his cholesterol primer thread), and has overall been a positive contributing member of the community.

    I think everyone's perspective is colored by their own experiences(or lack thereof, in some case). As an individual who got fat due to poor decisions about nutrition and lifestyle, then lost ~100 lbs, mostly through CW - exercise and/or calorie reduction via cutting out junk at first, then gradually transitioning to a more paleo/primal lifestyle, my own experience definitely affects my perspective. But certainly, my situation is somewhat different from someone with, say, a thyroid condition, or an injury that limits mobility - and it's important for me to remember that.

    There are some ideas that are common on these boards that I agree with wholeheartedly, and others that I'm not 100% certain are correct(or are, more accurately, incomplete theories/concepts in need of refinement), but I think one key aspect of many of the ideas espoused on these boards is the concept of empowerment. Just getting people to believe there is a way to improve their health/life is a monumental first step towards getting them to work towards a healthier lifestyle. And we shouldn't be bashing people that are making that effort, even if they're not doing it in what we consider to be the "best" way.

    Remember, most people are here for similar reasons - because either A) they found that other approaches to weight/health management did not work for them, and/or B) primal/paleo DID have benefits for them. Most of us here are all on the same team, at least with regard to what we feel makes sense in terms of nutrition/lifestyle - even if we may disagree about the true reasons behind why such a lifestyle "works".
    Last edited by jsa23; 08-19-2011 at 04:02 AM.

  10. #220
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    Personally I think that for 99% of the people reading this, the information is wrong - being obese with good numbers is preferable to being normal weight with bad numbers, but imo being normal weight with good numbers is always the ideal to aim for.

    However at this moment I think it is correct for Griff - he has already lost a tremendous amount of weight which will take a major mental adjustment, until he's had chance to own this new weight I think it would be a mistake to push him past his comfort level as that can just result in the person sabotaging themselves and bouncing back to where they were comfortable mentally ie 400lb. His own comments state that at this moment in time he prefers to be fat and doesn't want to look non fat so that speaks for itself.

    After saying that I am a little worried that Griffs posts which are well respected may mislead newer people as the majority of those do not have the same goals at this moment in time. Just because he chooses not to be in the accepted weight range or exercise should not mean that other people are encouraged to make the same choices as this forum is surely for us to help and encourage people wanting to improve their lives and achieve exactly that.
    1st June 11 to 30st Aug 11 - 36lb removed in 13 weeks
    Messed about on and off for the rest of the year

    June 2012 - Had the practice - now time to do it for real

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