Lemons, Kidney Stones & PB page

[jenh]

Random thoughts here - or maybe not random? Hmm. Anyway....

I am a long-time suffer of kidney stones and have recently chosen to get off my prescription HCTZ (Hydrochlorathiazide - spelling might be a hair off) for several reasons. I have heard via articles, youtube, and YES, my urologist that oranges and lemons contain massive amounts of citrate. This citrate helps to break up (or discourage creation, whatever, I'm not a scientific person) lovely stones - mine are calcium oxalate and I really detest having to worry about what veggies I should not eat, etc...

I know the last CT scan (dec 2009) I had several stones in each kidney (yes, I have one on each side so I am biologically normal from that standpoint) and my kidneys do not appear to have any other abnormalities like being tilted wrong etc... Around June-July I had a string of stones pass..right side, left side, right side, left side, and back like this for around 3 weeks... July 2nd was the worst one I've had since Dec 2009.

I am wondering if avoiding the processed foods has made enough difference that my body was "releasing" all this water into my systems allowing it to see these results of stones passing literally left and right and left and right... I had also been adding lemons into my water... If I drink say even 1/4 cup of lemon juice/day is this something that is going to stall me on losing the weight/PB results? (Yes, I am considering drinking it straight and did so recently despite it's afterbite; if you've had stones you know you'll do almost ANYTHING to avoid that pain.)

FYI, I've done times of up to two months before where I would do very well with drinking 1/2 my weight in ounces (ie: 100 pounds=50 ounces of water each day) and didn't see this kind of effect - atleast not to the same degree... And my urologist visit yesterday he did not see any blood in the urine so there was no reason to suspect there is any blockages or stones passing at this time because I also have no stone pains...

I want to personally avoid the orange thing 'cuz I love orange juice...and that will lead me down a bad road and am still struggling to get back on the bandwagon - but that's another story.

Thoughts and opinions are appreciated and thank you!
-Jen

[Egerland]

Jen- Potassium citrate seems to be the most benign prescription to prevent stone buildup (depending on the chemical composition of the stones). I learned not to mess around with them the hard way. A couple of years ago, I got fed up waiting for lithotripsy, and drank massive quantities of lemon juice. The pain went away, and I thought that had resolved -or dissolved- the problem. Months later, routine urinalysis showed a big decline in kidney function; the docs followed up with an xray that showed the left ureter was completely blocked by a massive (almond-sized) stone. Lithotripsy cleared it up, and I recovered 95% of what I'd lost in kidney function. My conclusion was that lemon juice does not dissolve stones, though it will prevent them from forming.
Anecdotal evidence is that a correct low-carb diet will retrain the kidneys to not make stones. But this is one area where I'd do everything the doctor says.

[jenh]

Jen- Potassium citrate seems to be the most benign prescription to prevent stone buildup (depending on the chemical composition of the stones). I learned not to mess around with them the hard way. A couple of years ago, I got fed up waiting for lithotripsy, and drank massive quantities of lemon juice. The pain went away, and I thought that had resolved -or dissolved- the problem. Months later, routine urinalysis showed a big decline in kidney function; the docs followed up with an xray that showed the left ureter was completely blocked by a massive (almond-sized) stone. Lithotripsy cleared it up, and I recovered 95% of what I'd lost in kidney function. My conclusion was that lemon juice does not dissolve stones, though it will prevent them from forming.
Anecdotal evidence is that a correct low-carb diet will retrain the kidneys to not make stones. But this is one area where I'd do everything the doctor says.

I am aware of potassium citrate, but the urologist did not feel that was necessary for my condition as HCTZ seemed to be helping but it does something with calcium absorption into kidneys or somethingorother... And with osteoporosis running in the family I dislike the idea of playing around with calcium. I've had lithotripsy done before and 3 surgeries where they "pulled" out stones (urethoscopy?) that weren't moving but had left kidneys... So while I dislike the idea of seeing if they will continue to form, I also hate medications, but perhaps the right PB diet can retrain... I am thinking of having a CT scan done this year to see what's going on inside for my own "comfort" err knowledge.

[Hedonist]

Interesting info. i have had stones off and on for years, always in the summer. So I think hydration is an issue. Mine are apparently always small. Right now I have a 5 mm, a 1 mm, and a 2 mm that seems to be trying to pass. Doc (actually PAs) say drink lots of fluid and wait. I have been trying lemon and lime juice in the water. I have also tried jumping up and down.

Three MDs misdiagnosed. The first, a strange homeopathic doc, said it was mono. The next two insisted it was arthritis. Finally, I convinced the third doc's PA to send me for xrays. Duh, stones.

[jenh]

Interesting info. i have had stones off and on for years, always in the summer. So I think hydration is an issue. Mine are apparently always small. Right now I have a 5 mm, a 1 mm, and a 2 mm that seems to be trying to pass. Doc (actually PAs) say drink lots of fluid and wait. I have been trying lemon and lime juice in the water. I have also tried jumping up and down.

Three MDs misdiagnosed. The first, a strange homeopathic doc, said it was mono. The next two insisted it was arthritis. Finally, I convinced the third doc's PA to send me for xrays. Duh, stones.

Mono-now that's kind of funny diagnosis. And arthritsis is usually something joint related - glad you insisted on xrays! Yes, hydration can be part of the issue and I have heard of a jump bump method but have not tried it. Usually mine is either light pain or so severe that there is no way I can try that method since I fear I may get physically sick, so I'm left with pain meds, liquids, cold washrag and in front of sink, etc...

[Hedonist]

It seems that docs are taught to tell patients over 40 "It's probably arthritis. What do you expect? You are getting old."

[jenh]

It seems that docs are taught to tell patients over 40 "It's probably arthritis. What do you expect? You are getting old."

Hahaha! I love their lamo excuses and not *actually* wanting to get to the bottom of situations - just like the crazy car repair places. And 40? Hell I was 20 when I started getting stones...

[piano-doctor-lady]

A couple of things --

Is your Vitamin K2 status good? You need K2 to get calcium to go where you want it (the bones) instead of into soft tissues.

And -- you talk about avoiding high-oxalate veggies, and not liking to, but oxalate status is more complicated than one realizes. It also can relate to gut health (a huge autism connection) and the lack of oxalate-eating flora. My sister finally got results when she started using a probiotic called VSL#3, as well as watching her dietary sources. There's a Vitamin C connection: my dad's sky-high consumption of Vitamin C (several grams a day) gave him an oxalate stone once. There's a good Yahoo group about oxalate issues: "Trying Low Oxalates"

Trying_Low_Oxalates : Trying Low Oxalates

From this list I've heard of people who went on a health kick with a great big spinach salad every day for lunch, who then got kidney stones within two years.

While I try not to obsess about oxalate levels, I also steer clear of the main offenders like rhubarb, spinach, chard and beets, and I watch quantities of higher oxalate goodies I don't want to totally avoid, like chocolate, nuts, and tea.

[jenh]

A couple of things --

Is your Vitamin K2 status good? You need K2 to get calcium to go where you want it (the bones) instead of into soft tissues.

And -- you talk about avoiding high-oxalate veggies, and not liking to, but oxalate status is more complicated than one realizes. It also can relate to gut health (a huge autism connection) and the lack of oxalate-eating flora. My sister finally got results when she started using a probiotic called VSL#3, as well as watching her dietary sources. There's a Vitamin C connection: my dad's sky-high consumption of Vitamin C (several grams a day) gave him an oxalate stone once. There's a good Yahoo group about oxalate issues: "Trying Low Oxalates"

Trying_Low_Oxalates : Trying Low Oxalates

From this list I've heard of people who went on a health kick with a great big spinach salad every day for lunch, who then got kidney stones within two years.

While I try not to obsess about oxalate levels, I also steer clear of the main offenders like rhubarb, spinach, chard and beets, and I watch quantities of higher oxalate goodies I don't want to totally avoid, like chocolate, nuts, and tea.

I actually have no data on Vitamin K2 and I did read something about Vitamin D or C and some effects on kidney stones. I swear there is never enough time to discuss this with the doctors...and then when I find articles it gets too technical for my puny lil' brain. I may be educated, but I am far from "scientific". I do know Spinach is the worst oxalate offender and am not and never have been a fan of spinach - or the other items you specifically mention. But I don't mind a salad from time to time w/ other leafy greens, peppers, etc it's amazing what foods have oxalates and I really dislike (almost hate) having to think about what veggies I should/shouldn't eat so I am trying to focus more heavily onto more water and more lemon... And "getting back on the stick" with my primal eating methods.

[piano-doctor-lady]

Okay, there are two sides of this stone forming thing: I assume these are your basic ordinary calcium oxalate stones.

Oxalate: watch the high oxalate foods, spinach, rhubarb, nuts, chocolate, black tea (coffee is almost free of oxalate, though.)
Also don't overdo taking Vitamin C, because it can be turned to oxalate in the body.

Calcium: K2 will help calcium to end up in bones, where you want it, instead of in your kidneys, where you do not. And be sure not to take calcium supplements, so there isn't so much calcium wandering around your system, waiting to combine with oxalate. Having good Vitamin D status through supplements will help you get plenty of calcium from your ordinary food; so if you take D and don't take K2, be careful not to take calcium.

And lots of fluids to keep it all in solution, but you know that.