Might temporarily go back to vegan page 3

[RitaRose]

...lovely enemas...

Oxymoron?

They fed rabbits and rats foods their bodies don't normally eat and they didn't process them well. I'm hardly shocked. In humans, dietary cholesterol has not been linked to serum cholesterol.

I was listening to an interview with Dr. Lustig not that long ago and he was talking about studies of high fat diets. He didn't regard the animal studies as valid because they had to add a lot of sugar (up to 20%) to the fat to get the animals to eat much of it.

This^

To the OP:
Look, I know we have grown to distrust mainstream doctors, but sometimes they can be helpful. If you had problems before you went Primal, and again now that you have, the issue might be something that needs more help than simply changing your diet. If you go to the doctor and he says you should do something you think would make your health worse, you are free to ignore his advice.

But there's also a chance he may be right. Can't hurt any more than a copay, and it might help a lot.

[Lewis]

I've been eating primal for about 4 months now, and am not doing well. I'm lost on what to do. I've got chest pains (started before going primal, with two different holistic docs telling me I've got clogged arteries), and they're not going away.

Yes, but are they right?

List of tests here. Did they do any of these?

Atherosclerosis - Symptoms, Diagnosis, Treatment of Atherosclerosis - NY Times Health Information

What does a "holistic doc" mean anyway? Certainly people's problems should be looked at in a holistic manner, but that doesn't mean that anyone who calls himself "holistic" is actually doing that. Perhaps all they mean is that they're not M.D.s. Now the official medical profession has its drawbacks certainly, but when it comes to testing for some specific condition they can probably be relied on—so long as you can get them to do it.

Why believe a chiropractor when it doesn't come to bones (they do know about that) ... and on the basis of what is he saying this?

Long ago I tried to be a vegan raw foodist and was never very good at it, but whenever I did a 30 day raw foods detox I'd feel great afterwards.

I think it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing in the short term. And you'd possibly get some energy while doing it because you weren't having to use much energy to digest your food. But (a) feelings can be deceptive (a shot of raw alcohol would certainly feel like it was doing you good at the time, when all it was really doing was providing a brief flare of energy), and (b) keep at it and even if it were good in the short term for at least some people for some purposes you could be doing great harm in the long term.

But the deprivation did me in ...

I'd say that's a pretty good indication.

On primal, I've lost about 20 of those pounds, but still feel like hell.

Then I'd agree that you probably have got deeper problems. What they are is another question.

I can't even exercise anymore - can't even take a walk - as it leads to GERD symptoms and chest pain issues, and I'm only 20 or 30 pounds overweight.

As I understand it this can often be insufficient stomach acid. You may have problems digesting the protein and the fat in Primal meals—specially if you haven't been used to that kind of food because of your previous regimen. You may need enzymes or even HCL. Or possibly there's some deeper problem.

The best I've felt in the last ten years has only been after doing a vegan detox. I'm wondering if raw vegan is the way to go for the short term, to get over some health issues, then maybe try slowly getting back into primal at some point. I know there are many who have had lots of health issues arise from being a long-term vegan, but maybe it would be good for short-term healing.

You must do as you think best. But I do think there are serious problems with going that route. Some of your problems, such as digestive/acid-reflux issues, may not be unconnected with veganism—although there again they may not be.

Have a listen to the Primal Body, Primal mind podcast on vegetarianism—the one listed at number 31 (The Pitfalls of Vegetarianism). I think if you eat enough eggs and dairy products and take a few supplements you can probably do OK, although it's not an ideal diet; but cut those out as well and I think sooner or later you risk doing yourself some major damage. Apart from anything else, you really have to be low-fat, high-carb if you eat like that, and that in itself is hugely damaging. Your body (and brain) need that fat, but don't need all that sugar raging round them, spiking your blood-sugar and causing glycation damage. You will also be exposed to high levels of lectins from the wholegrains and legumes you'll need to eat instead of real first-class protein.

Primal Body Primal Mind Radio - Download free podcast episodes by Nora T. Gedgaudas, CNS, CNT on iTunes.

The lady who does that podcast, Nora Gedgaudas, as well as dealing in nutrition does neurofeedback, and she says—I think in that episode—that when you actually look at the brainwaves of people who are hooked up to neurofeedback software the people with the worst and most intractable problems are very often vegetarians. This doesn't surprise me, because by eating like that you are depleting yourself of vital nutrients and may even find it difficult to make the neurotransmitters your brain needs. (The point about neurotransmitters is made by the authors of Lights Out.)

...William C. Roberts MD, author of 1300 scientific publications, numerous cardiology textbooks, and editor of the American Journal of Cardiology for a quarter of a century said it best.

In his 2008 editorial, "The Cause of Atherosclerosis," published in the journal Nutrition in Clinical Practice, Roberts says that, "Atherosclerosis is easily ...

In other words, any creature that can get atherosclerosis is meant to eat plants.

Nope.

(1) If you feed an animal a diet that it hasn't evolved to eat, it will get problems. The rabbit isn't built for that food.

(2) Humans are not herbivorous: their whole system from the teeth down is basically that of a carnivore. This is why their gut is so short (and their brain so large). Humans can eat some plant food, if it's suitably processed (meaning often lactic-fermented, cooked, etc.), but they're not herbivores.

(3) Study after study has shown that there is actually no correlation between the consumption of fat and heart disease. The Maasai who have one of the highest proportions of fat ever recorded in a diet don't get heart attacks and autopsies have shown them to be free of atherosclerosis, too. Atherosclerosis and myocardial infarction in humans may actually be linked to excessive consumption of refined carbs, or it may be something far more complex and multi-causal, but it isn't down to fat consumption. The diet-heart hypothesis is a busted flush. The original 7 countries study only gives a graph because the other 12 countries for which data was available were not plotted on the graph—which would have resulted in a scatter not a line. The latest and largest metadata study show absolutely no correlation between consumption of fat (or saturated fat) and heart disease.

I'd get a second opinion on your symptoms. Try a conventional doctor, or a doctor with a primal bent or both. the only one I've heard of is Chris Kresser, who has a Paleo/WAPF focus:

Chris Kresser

Doubtless there are many others.

[fiercehunter]

The endocrinologist Diana Shwarzbein says were meant to be part of the food chain. I personally believe in D'adamos blood typing system; if you are an A for example, red meat is not your food of choice. You will still want animal protein but from other sources. If you're an O though veganism will set you up for a lifetime of problems. Adding red meat to my diet & animal foods in general (I'm an O) has been one of the best decisions I've ever made health wise. Veganism is a deadly stupid diet generally.

[DFH]

The endocrinologist Diana Shwarzbein says were meant to be part of the food chain. I personally believe in D'adamos blood typing system; if you are an A for example, red meat is not your food of choice. You will still want animal protein but from other sources. If you're an O though veganism will set you up for a lifetime of problems. Adding red meat to my diet & animal foods in general (I'm an O) has been one of the best decisions I've ever made health wise. Veganism is a deadly stupid diet generally.

I thought that blood type diet thing was debunked too?

[js290]

Egyptian Mummies Diagnosed With Clogged Arteries : NPR

[Valkyria]

They fed rabbits and rats foods their bodies don't normally eat and they didn't process them well. I'm hardly shocked. In humans, dietary cholesterol has not been linked to serum cholesterol.

I was listening to an interview with Dr. Lustig not that long ago and he was talking about studies of high fat diets. He didn't regard the animal studies as valid because they had to add a lot of sugar (up to 20%) to the fat to get the animals to eat much of it.

Very good point, how can someone not see that? Maybe a raw vegan diet isn't so good for cognitive abilities ...?

[jimtoo]

Very good point, how can someone not see that? Maybe a raw vegan diet isn't so good for cognitive abilities ...?

Great, thanks. I tried to be a vegan raw foodist for about 3 years and never very consistently, and have been primal for 4 months, but I guess I lack cognitive abilities. Thanks to others for the comments regarding that study.

Nice videos JS. I'm amazed that hunt lasted 8 hours. Almost seems like it wouldn't be worth it, but obviously they make it work. But what's with the tennis shoes?

Well, I see one way to get a lot of attention on this forum is to mention veganism in the title...

[muaythaimike]

You could be feeling bad because of nutrient deficiencies. Do you track your micros? I would also try and get more seafood into my diet assuming what you posted was your typical diet. Shell fish, oily fish and non fatty sea critters go a long way to adding hard to get nutrients and variety.

That said low carb might not be right for you, have you tried experimenting with more primal carbs? Extra root veg and fruits might help.

[breadsauce]

The Roberts source sounds like woo. The egg/cholesterol thing has been long debunked. There is a chapter on this in the book Protein Power.

If I were you I would get a detailed blood test to do some troubleshooting. The answers are not in publications.

As far as diet, do what makes you feel right. I would avoid grains though because of inflammation.

I keep seeing this word WOO . Can anyone explain it simply??

[davem]

...with two different holistic docs telling me I've got clogged arteries...

Stopped reading here. I mean come on, really? Holistic docs? Let me guess, they suggested goji berries and cell water...

So why haven't you been any good historically at dietary change? Why would you eat crap? Cookies are nice, but are they needed? Etc. Have you spoken with a real doctor and gotten some labs done?

In other words, any creature that can get atherosclerosis is meant to eat plants. Any animal who cannot is meant to eat animal protein.

...

Humans are clearly meant to be plant eaters, and eating a primal diet will destroy us.

Uhm, horse dung. Aside from substantive research that cites meat eating as a method to increase brain size and capability, being omnivorous allowed us to survive when an obligate carnivore, or a strict herbivore would not have been able to. I mean really, I can google, so can you. If you actually WANT answers, let Google Scholar be your friend, and don't rely on others to do your research for you.

Then again, if you want to believe the holistics and old flawed research... my mom sells Genesis Pure stuff, drop me a note and I'll get you her website link.