Milk...butter...diary....i'm confused?? page

[Springbok7]

Hi there,

New to Paleo, and had a question regarding the consumption of dairy, cheese, butter, milk, etc.

After reading Mark's book I thought that Milk was bad (high sugar content/high insulin effect), but that fermented dairy like aged cheese, greek yogurt, butter for cooking, full fat whipping cream (with strawberries) were ok. I was hanging out with a buddy who also does paleo and his message was that all Dairy is out and that all dairy is bad.

To be honest i'm just confused, so I was hoping someone could shed some light on the topic. Are these good in moderation? Are the fats from these foods required for energy? Is all dairy bad? Any help is much appreciated. Thanks!!

Cheers,

[MvEssen]

Dairy is mainly a self experiment really. Some people do really well with it, others will get sick from it. There is also the differene between heavy processed and (as close to as possible) raw. Take it out of your diet for a month, see how you feel. Put it back in (as the only change in your diet) for a month and see how you feel. Base rather or not you use dairy on that.

Butter for most people is ok, even if they have problem with other forms of dairy. Butter is one of the better fats for baking, health wise.

[onalark]

It depends.

Butter is mostly fat. If you don't have a dairy intolerance, go crazy. (Well, don't actually go crazy, but -- y'know. Enjoy.)

Cream is also mostly fat. Same deal.

If you have an autoimmune situation, you may want to try an elimination diet, which includes cutting out all dairy, all legumes, all grains, all nightshades (peppers, tomatoes, eggplant), and eggs, and then re-integrating to see what sets you off and what doesn't. This is tough, but if you're really sick, it's worth a try for at least 30 days to see if anything improves.

Most hard, aged cheeses are fine for the lactose intolerant. I wouldn't go crazy with cheese if you're trying to lose weight.

We enjoy milk maybe once a week, and usually in baking. Very small amounts. Butter I use regularly. I do have Hashimoto's thyroiditis, but I seem to tolerate dairy and nightshades, so I don't worry about those so much.

See also:
Is Cheese Unhealthy? | Mark's Daily Apple

[Lewis]

I was hanging out with a buddy who also does paleo and his message was that all Dairy is out and that all dairy is bad.

It's out in Paleo (or, at least in Professor Cordain's version of Paleo) but not in Primal. In Primal all unfermented dairy is out, but fermented dairy (and butter) are in, as you say.

I think the basic reason is that the most problematic thing with unfermented dairy is the lactose—not everyone can digest it very well. There are some other issues, as listed here, but they're probably much less important (and virtually all foods have issues—is your beef grass-fed? are your vegetables free of pesticide residue? is your shellfish from sewage-free waters? etc., etc.)

The Definitive Guide to Dairy | Mark's Daily Apple

For me, yes, fermented dairy and butter from grass-fed animals are worth including in your diet, because ithey're a readily available and high quality source of several important nutrients, including the minerals calcium and phosphorus. It's not that you can't get those nutrients elsewhere—you can—but not necessarily easily in the milieu you move in. IIRC, Australian Aborigines were eating something like 4.7 times the amount of calcium as Americans of the 1930s, according to Weston Price's measurements of their food. Now that probably came from seafood and leafy green vegetables. Fine, if you can get plenty of those and fresh where you live. Locally, in other places, good dairy products would be easier to get hold of.

Apparently, Staffan Lindeberg, a very well-known Paleo researcher from the University of Lund in Sweden, says if you can't get enough leafy green vegetables you should supplement calcium. Maybe he's not really pro-dairy either. Still, I prefer food to supplements, so it's cheese and yoghurt for me.

[Knifegill]

I cannot touch milk without pain and zits, bloating and constipation. But I can eat an entire block of aged/sharp cheese in a day and feel great. Not that I advocate getting that many calories from cheese on a regular basis, but my groceries ran out! Anyway, from one lactose intolerant person to the next, guidelines may vary. Also remember that all those cheese calories are devoid of nutrition compared to an avocado or pile of leafy greens, so don't rely on it.

[barryman9000]

Lactose (sugar) and Cassein (protein) are the main problems with dairy as I understand it. Lactose is out for the lactose intolerant and because its unneeded sugar, and Cassein is linked to a "leaky gut" aka when food passes undigested into the bloodstream.

Like @MvEssen suggested, cut it for 30 days then add it back in via butter or something high fat and see what happens, or just cut the high sugar stuff like milk and see what happens. Its definitely individualized.