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    nocturnalmama's Avatar
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    HIIT questions...

    So... in the thread about women's experiences with PB and fat loss, some kind soul linked some BBS information - I quite enjoyed reading through and watching some of the exercises.

    I know I'd have a tough time with the BBS protocol just looking at the videos - I found the workout moved pretty slowly, and tbh seemed a bit on the dull side.

    So... this article:

    “BODY BY SCIENCE” — ESPECIALLY FOR WOMEN

    talks about using glycogen stores, and that high intensity exercise is what is needed to use them... so to mobilize fat, you have to deplete glycogen stores with your exercise....

    I'm curious how one would be able to gauge if a workout does this or not. What would be a marker of intensity? obviously working to failure is a good sign, but what if you don't work to failure... say... in a fitness class but you work VERY VERY hard?

    The BBS protocol suggests doing this once a week??? (I haven't read the book, I've just watched the videos and read a bit on the forums here and on the site) Do you agree with this?

    I guess what I'm suggesting (and this was brought up in the other thread) is that there must be other ways to produce the same effect which is emptying glycogen stores.

    Also.. the role of LLC? I thought LLC was intended to be "fat burning".... I do find it helps with fat loss a great deal, if my diet is dialed in. Thoughts??
    Robin
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    Abu Reena's Avatar
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    misleading title. You mean HIT. HIIT is high intensity interval training. BBS is about so-called "high intensity training" that is, moving so slowly it's like watching paint dry.

    HIIT is fun, although I often want to puke after. HIT I avoid.

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    nocturnalmama's Avatar
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    Actually... I guess yes and no.

    I mean doing HIIT in place of BBS and curious if the desired outcome would be the same? Does that make sense?

    I can't do HIT... boring. But, I love HIIT... but I also see the value in the science behind the BBS protocol. The article I linked seems to imply that any exercise modality that is high intensity would accomplish the same effect.

    Perhaps I'm misunderstanding - but, there has got to be more than one way to approach this scientific method, correct? (of course, this is also part of why I'm asking)
    Robin
    ~primal mama to 3~

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    Abu Reena's Avatar
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    Ah, got it.

    Here's the thing: HIIT is fun. It's also primal. Sprinting is a form of HIIT. I'd do it, at least once a week. If you're not going all out as in sprinting, you can do HIIT once or twice a week. An all out effort should prbably be done only once a week. HIIT will make you lose fat, if your diet is dialed in correctly. It's fun as long as you don't puke. Puking is bad.

    So I'd do HIIT 1-2x week and don't worry about anything else. Failure isn't important. A good hard effort for 5-8 intervals is what you need. If you can do another interval, you probably haven't worked hard enough.. But you don't have to be leg quivering, unable to lift your arms to get results.

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    MikeEnRegalia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Reena View Post
    misleading title. You mean HIT. HIIT is high intensity interval training. BBS is about so-called "high intensity training" that is, moving so slowly it's like watching paint dry.

    HIIT is fun, although I often want to puke after. HIT I avoid.
    That's also misleading - what you're describing is the "SuperSlow" protocol, but you can also train to failure with a more traditional cadence like 3 seconds concentric, 3 seconds eccentric, as recommended by Drew Baye. I definitely prefer that approach over SuperSlow. Aim for a weight that will allow 8-10 repetitions with a 3/3 cadence until you reach positive muscular failure - which means that you really can't complete another repetition, which isn't the same as mere discomfort - and you're doing proper HIT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnalmama View Post
    talks about using glycogen stores, and that high intensity exercise is what is needed to use them... so to mobilize fat, you have to deplete glycogen stores with your exercise....
    To be clear, to mobilize fat one needs low serum insulin levels. By depleting your muscles of glycogen you make your muscles more sensitive to insulin signaling. The more insulin sensitive you are, the less insulin you have floating around.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnalmama View Post
    I'm curious how one would be able to gauge if a workout does this or not. What would be a marker of intensity? obviously working to failure is a good sign, but what if you don't work to failure... say... in a fitness class but you work VERY VERY hard?
    High intensity necessarily implies anaerobic metabolism. Burning off glycogen is an anaerobic process. VERY VERY hard in a fitness class may not necessarily hit the anaerobic pathways.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnalmama View Post
    The BBS protocol suggests doing this once a week??? (I haven't read the book, I've just watched the videos and read a bit on the forums here and on the site) Do you agree with this?
    Hitting your anaerobic pathways is brutal physically and mentally. Some people are able to recover quicker, others slower. The average observed by the authors of BBS in training their subjects is about 7 days. One way to measure your recovery is grip strength recovery with a hand dyno. It's hard mentally to put yourself through a fight-or-flight type of workout (HIT or HIIT) much more often than that. That last impossible rep has to be done as if you and your family's lives depended on it. Or, you have to sprint as if you're about to be devoured by a predator.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnalmama View Post
    I guess what I'm suggesting (and this was brought up in the other thread) is that there must be other ways to produce the same effect which is emptying glycogen stores.
    You could do interval training (HIIT) at 170% VO2max as prescribed by Tabata. The main problem with HIIT is the wear and tear. Running a marathon or swimming the English Channel will probably also deplete your muscle glycogen.

    Good luck figuring it out for yourself, though. The important thing is you've figured out what meaningful exercise is.

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    nocturnalmama's Avatar
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    it really is a mental hurdle a lot of the time for me...

    The fitness class I do comes darn close... she does 2 sets of each exercise, and I'm guessing one more set would get everyone pretty close to that feeling of brutality... usually by the end of the second set, my brain starts to say "no, too much" and I slow down... sometimes I can over ride the feeling and keep going - but I get what you are saying about being brutal physically and mentally - I KNOW one more set would definitely fall into that realm...

    Mike- the 3/3 cadence sounds more my speed. I've seen videos that have the "big three" and have seen reference to "the big five"... I'm assuming there are some compound movements that address multiple muscle groups, any suggestions of websites or books that might have more detail regarding proper weight lifting training? I think I can enlist the help of a trainer at my gym to navigate the weight machines/free weights, but I'd love to have some sort of knowledge going in. Until now, my weight lifting has been mostly body weight with a few assisted pull ups and some leg presses...

    I think I'll also read back and see what Mark has to say about this...

    Much thanks!
    Robin
    ~primal mama to 3~

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    The big 3 and the big 5 depend on who you're talking to. The BBS have their "Big whatevers"that's not the big x that other lifters use.

    The Big 3 is usually defined by most lifters as squats, deadlifts, and bench. Add presses and another pull (e.g., pullups) to that and you have the framework of a full body workout. You don't need much more than that.

    Don't use machines if you can avoid it. They're not natural movements.

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    ^ If you go to a gym and try out professional machines for compound movements, you'll find that they feel quite natural. If you plan to try HIT you should definitely use these machines unless you know very well what you're doing - trying to do bench presses to failure can send you to the hospital or worse (search youtube for bench press accidents).

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    1) If it's not clear from the above, I wouldn't lift to failure.

    2) If you were to do a bench press to failure, I'd use dumbbells. Also, Mike, you mentioned positive failure. That means you can't squeeze out another rep, or it means that you've got the negative part down, but can't lift it. Neither would be dangerous with DBs. Negative failure (your arm collapses on the way down) would be.

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