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Thread: Jack Kruse aka The Quilt page 2

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digby View Post
    J

    Also, how does one know when s/he is no longer leptin sensitive?
    THIS???? Leptin has been showing up alot on the mda forum...so I started looking for more info to educate myself... the light hasn't gone on for me w/regards to full understanding...but I want to know the key to this....I think this might be why I've plateaued. now to start reading... Dr. Kruse's blog...

  2. #12
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    I downloaded Mastering Leptin last night. It has some additional information in it about leptin, insulin and ghrelin which is good. They also had some information that they haven't filtered all that well, so their recommendations don't make sense.I found it really interesting to look at where the citations and rationales are absent from the Quilt and ML. ML has few good supports, for example, for their section on saturated fat and exercise. The Quilt has few around the hard and fast rules that are promoted. But the basic science underpinning both approaches works.

    Carbs: this is an area where I struggled with both ML and the Quilt. ML points out that 'some' carbohydrates are necessary for normal ghrelin activity - which includes gastric motility, the release of stomach acid to digest protein, and efficient stomach emptying. (These are problem areas in my IBS). They don't quantify 'some' carbs though, and they haven't qualified the type of carbs at all; grains are acceptable for them. The Quilt is very restrictive with a limit of 25g of carbs within paleo guidelines. This level of carbs tends to create problems with my gut that I hadn't traced back to ghrelin issues before today. I can't find any citations or rationale that support very low carbs specifically to heal leptin resistance - and ML and the Jaminets have some convincing arguments that fit with my own (n = 1) experience. I'm open to convincing, but it's not an area I'll experiment with any more. I need evidence before I take that on again.

    Meal timing: ML doesn't emphasise the 'within 30 minutes' rule, and later in the book (the fighting disease section) actually say that 3 meals a day is maximum, not optimal, and that the main point of the meal timing is to prevent snacking. They say that 2 meals a day is fine for some people. The Quilt's rationale is also about preventing snacking, and Jack doesn't make any allowances for individuals who have previously healed enough for this to not be an issue. The key point they both agree on is that to encourage a healthy cycle of leptin, insulin, ghrelin and NPY, you need to have at least 5 hours between meals and at least 12 hours of fasting between dinner and breakfast, during which you sleep. The timing of dinner at least 3 hours before sleep is also consistent and well supported.

    Fat: ML is against high or even moderate fat, but later says that 'the primary neurotransmitter relating to leptin is dopamine. Dopamine is involved with reward behavior. The fastest way to increase dopamine is to eat fat; this in turn raises leptin and shuts off NPY'. Fat intake isn't quantified or particularly well qualified. The Quilt includes fat - not quantified, but paleo, however there is little (so far) in the way of rationale. However, for most paleo folk the rationale isn't needed as we've done lots of reading about it already. I'm very interested in Paleobird's experiences of limiting her fat intake to take off the last percentages of her overweight, though - it's something that should be revisited in the context of women and obesity as most of the literature focuses on normal weight and/or men. In particular, peri and postmenopausal women challenge the received paleo wisdom of 'eat more fat'.

    Exercise: ML supports chronic cardio, but in spite of their citations from CW, they emphasise the feeling of being refreshed during and after exercise - which kind of shoots down their recommendation until a person is metabolically fixed and lean. They need to revisit this section with an open mind as to what kind of movement will provide the benefits of improved muscle efficiency.

    One thing I like about the Quilt is the assumption that this eating plan can be tailored after 6 - 8 weeks. ML treats it like a life sentence. I suspect this is because of the paleo underpinnings for the Quilt which provide lifelong eating and lifestyle guidelines so stopping after a couple of months doesn't revert to the SAD. Stopping the ML eating plan leaves no backup at all, and SAD eating will no doubt resume.

    So at this point in my reading, I'm going to try the protein and fat in the morning, abstain from eating after about 7pm, keep dinner light, and go at least 5 hours between eating. I'm not low-carbing beyond the natural levels that paleo tends to create, nor am I going to restrict fat. It'll be interesting to see where this goes!
    Last edited by Jac; 06-09-2011 at 01:33 PM.
    Started Feb 18 2011

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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shijin13 View Post
    THIS???? Leptin has been showing up alot on the mda forum...so I started looking for more info to educate myself... the light hasn't gone on for me w/regards to full understanding...but I want to know the key to this....I think this might be why I've plateaued. now to start reading... Dr. Kruse's blog...
    Shijin, I think Digby had a typo there - it's about being no longer leptin resistant. The things that I resonated with the most were poor quality of sleep, and a leadenness when I try to exercise. I tend to get exhausted well before I can raise a sweat. You'll find his questions to assess leptin sensitivity towards the end of the Oprah blog entry. I wish he'd bullet point them or something, though - they're not easy to see!
    Started Feb 18 2011

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  4. #14
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    I had some of the same concerns about ML too.

    I put this on another forum and I guess I will cut and paste it here..

    I'm trying to unravel this leptin thing and downloaded Mastering Leptin by Byron and Mary Guignon Richards. I thought these two pages were pretty funny, since they just go off on Atkins-

    P1-

    P2


    I'm not buying everything in this book just because they say so. I'm trying to pull from it what I can. Their leptin diet matches Dr Kruse's recommendations, 50 g of protein early in the morning, no snacks and 3 meals. I don't agree with them all about milk.

    They don't even mention IF in the book as far as I can tell. This is notable because the IF meme is just out of control on the popular forums, as if it were the fix to EVERYthing.

    The two above pages are not going to be popular with Primal folks too who don't see any limits to saturated fat.

    This book is interesting but weak. All the chapters are like these two pages, heavy on summary and opinion, but they just gloss over the points as if you should assume they are right.

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    Yes, I agree. As a post menopausal woman I don't know what to make of IFing because most of what's written so far seems to come from personal experiences of people far from my physical profile. I'll wait and see on that one.

    The saturated fat argument is interesting, too. I suspect there's been a leap in logic that goes from "low fat and vege fats are not healthy" to "we need fat to be healthy" to "eat more MUFAs" to "eat LOTS of MUFAS". I agree with the first three points and can find evidence to support them. The latter point, not so much.

    Also interesting that there is a mention of uncoupled protein 3, but no citations and it's not clear what their critique is of Atkins in this regard - if a person is losing weight on a high protein diet, I'd have thought that they're demonstrably leptin sensitive?? And if that's the case, then leptin is activating UP3 in order to get rid of excess fat . . . so what's the problem??
    Last edited by Jac; 06-09-2011 at 02:18 PM.
    Started Feb 18 2011

    Journalling here

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  6. #16
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    It would seem to me that the problem with IF'ing for folks who are leptin resistant, is that it they are abstaining from food despite feeling some hunger because they are trying to go a set period of time fasting, they are triggering the "starvation response" and overiding the body's natural "time to refuel' signals (which are leptin driven). If they are simply not eating breakfast in the morning at a set time, but waiting to eat the first meal until they are truly hungry, that is a totally different metabolic picture.

    intentional fasting for those who are not leptin resistant is totally different than for those who are. Leptin resistance means your body perceives you are in a near constant state of "almost about to starve to death" - because your brain is not getting the message that you are full of energy stores. Therefore it does everything it can to slow metabolism and conserve energy. Anything a leptin resistant person does that might reinforce the "i am starving" experience works against restoring active metabolism and fat burning.

    So, if you can go 16 hours between dinner and breakfast because you are genuinely not interested in food, and not hungry it is probably OK. But, if you are forcing yourself to fast for 16 hours because you think it will help you lose weight but it is a struggle, it is probably counterproductive.

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    What would you suggest for someone who only has a 30 minute window to workout pretty much as soon as they get out of bed? Obviously, that kills the theory of eating 50g of protein within 30 min of waking.

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    for last 4 month or so, I have basically followed leptin resistance repair diet without knowing it LOL. used to get up at 6am, fix high protein breakfast (usually 2 egg, 3 bacon, sauteed cabbages and protein shake) about 50 gm of protein every morning. after 1st month, I was eating 3 meals a day. my target was 150gm of protein a day and was taking in about 60-70gm of carbs. now, I am down 45lb, but I have to workout in the morning. so we take protein shake before workout (27gm of protein) then have breakfast after workout. been doing this for about a week now. hoping that protein shake is enough to reduce AM cortisol when it fortified with high protein breakfast 1 hour later.

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    I don't know what the rationale for eating 50g of protein within 30 minutes of arising is. He did not post any scientific studies or biochemistry or even logic for this. It seems to me that if you are NOT hungry right away, it is better to wait to eat until later. You prolong the period of fat burning. As soon as you eat, your hormones go into energy storage mode to tuck away all those calories for later use (so you don't have to eat 6 times a day).

    It makes sense to me to go 5-6 hours between eating during the day. That gives the body time to go from energy storage mode for an hour or two after eating, back into energy retrieval and fat burning. Everytime you eat, your hormones are switched over to storage mode, so it is logical to find a way to eat fewer times per day. Primal eating makes it possible to go 5-6 hours without eating and not feel hungry.

    My partner is one of the leptin resistant types and since going primal she has experienced very little weight loss, but a big improvement in not feeling hungry and not needing to eat as frequently. Forcing herself to eat immediately upon arising just seems wrong to her (and to me, but I am not leptin resistant). Right now it sounds about as wrong as forcing yourself to eat "6 small meals a day to keep your metabolism primed" - Eating when not hungry overrides the natural complex hormonal control of appetite, hunger and satiety that we are trying to restore. Rather than "priming metabolism" - it sends a metabolism that is very comfortably burning body fat into energy storage mode.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barb View Post
    I don't know what the rationale for eating 50g of protein within 30 minutes of arising is. He did not post any scientific studies or biochemistry or even logic for this. It seems to me that if you are NOT hungry right away, it is better to wait to eat until later. You prolong the period of fat burning. As soon as you eat, your hormones go into energy storage mode to tuck away all those calories for later use (so you don't have to eat 6 times a day).
    +1

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