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Thread: New comer looking for direction on fat intake page

  1. #1
    mascarorj's Avatar
    mascarorj is offline Junior Member
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    New comer looking for direction on fat intake

    Primal Fuel
    O.K. here goes,

    I am a 33 year old male. 5'10 @ 215 LBS. 15% Body Fat. I have, in the past, subscribed to the bodybuilding methodology of eating to cut. I have been "competition ready" twice just to see if I could get there.

    In 2003 I stopped working out pretty much all together and ate horribly, dieted off and on and last year I hit 270LBS. However, last year I found CrossFit & Paleo Nutrition. I have in that year done a complete recomp on my body.

    I've read Robb Wolf's book and at this point am 3/4 of the way through Mark's book (I lurked on the site for a long time, using recipes, looking at posts, etc - GREAT STUFF!!!!!) and I fully subscribe(I try!) to Primal/Paleo.

    However, I believe you cant measure if you dont measure and I use a scale and a calorie expenditure tracker along with Livestrong.com.

    I have started on a 30 day strict PB/Paleo "cut/leaning out" phase - 11 days down!

    I get most of my protein from chicken, steak, fish and hemp protein.

    I get most of my carbs from vegetables, sweet potatoes, nuts and the occasional yogurt or dairy product

    I get most of my fat from fish oil, almonds, coconut oil, olive oil and avacados. I ocassionaly eat chicken skin or a fatty steak.


    This is what I know

    Protein needs to match LBM. (I take in between 185-200grams)
    Carbs need to be between 50-100 to lose BF. (I am compliant for the most part)
    Fat makes up the rest.

    I use a BODYBUG to measure caloric expenditure and it estimates that I burn upwards of 3800-4000 calories per day when I do CrossFit and 3200-3600 when I dont.


    If I use the PB/Paleo approach I consume about 1200 calories per day max between carbs and protein. Leaving a deficit of 2000 to 2800 calories per day to make up with fat (that would maintain my weight.)

    If I am looking to burn 2lbs per week and reduce my caloric intake to 1000 calories below what I use, I need to consume 111grams to 200grams of fat per day.

    With all of that said, I have questions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    1. Does this make sense, am I on the right track?
    2. Do you realy need to be at a surplus to loose or gain weight, it seems like biology/physics to me and it makes sense to believe it does?
    3. What are the upper limits of fat intake for my stats and is there a possibility for diminishing returns?

    In both books mentioned, it seems or atleast I feel that the authors at some level believe that you must watch what goes in and comes out but dont admit it. They give parameters for Carb and Protein intake and talk about insulin response but never mention parameters on Fat intake.

    Any help, examples, stories, personal experience or suggestions are apprecaited. I know this is alot for a newb but please humor me.

  2. #2
    CoyoteVick's Avatar
    CoyoteVick is offline Senior Member
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    I just wanted to thank you for being a polite, intelligent newcomer that has read the books. Thank you, you'll do well here.

    Secondly, I'm not sure about your question. Hopefully someone else will be able to come along and "correct" me, but from what I've experienced, your body will let you know if you've eaten too much fat. It's ends up not being terribly digestible. Your body reaches a point, and then just sends the excess fat on it's way.

    I hope more people will chime in here and give more experience, as an overweight female with very little lean muscle, it's hard for me to have knowledge about that high of caloric needs. I eat 1500 cals a day and am good.

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    ELCO14's Avatar
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    1. Does this make sense, am I on the right track?
    2. Do you realy need to be at a surplus to loose or gain weight, it seems like biology/physics to me and it makes sense to believe it does?
    3. What are the upper limits of fat intake for my stats and is there a possibility for diminishing returns?
    1. Your on the right track to me, though I wouldn't go as extreme in tracking my progress but to each their own!
    2. I don't get too wrapped up in counting calories and the debate rages between calories in vs. out. If you're looking to keep muscle and reduce fat it's more about food intake timing and intermittent fasting. Have you checked out Martin over at leangains.com I transitioned from fat loss to muscle gain and have started using his protocol and I am super impressed with the results so far.
    3. When I was in fat loss I made sure most of my intake was from fat then protein while keeping my carbs to under 50g/day. Now I use the protocol previously mentioned so I take fat on my non-workout days.
    Self-realization. I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, "... I drank what?"

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    I echo Elco14's sentiments in regards to leangains, as Martin knows his stuff. I would up your protein to your bodyweight and I would up your carbs on workout days with all carbs coming post-workout. Keep fat low on initial post-workout meal.

    The bottomline is you're going to need to tinker with your macros and see what works for you as some people can tolerate higher carbs than others can.

  5. #5
    mascarorj's Avatar
    mascarorj is offline Junior Member
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    Coyotevick, thanks for the kind words!

    Gents, it seems Martin does have some valuable ideas, I was under the impression he was a bit less "anti carb" then Mark.

    Thanks for the input, this community's support and knowledge and willingness to help is what makes it worth it

  6. #6
    Paleobird's Avatar
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    As most folks around here will tell you, I am a big proponent of tracking calories and macros. I don't consider it to be obsessive at all, just being aware. But that is a personal choice. To some people it is crazy-making. To others it is being in control. I was stuck going nowhere for five months "doing everything right" on the "throw away your scale and eat your bacon" plan. I started counting calories in March and have lost 19 of the 30 lbs I hope to lose already.
    Paleo folks don't like to be told that they need to eat less, hence the popularity of the leangains approach "eat less often". I have nothing against this approach but, if one person says they just have tea for breakfast, eat lunch at noon, dinner at eight and use some self control to not snack after dinner, that's boring CW calorie restriction. Another person says they IF for 16 hours with an 8 hour "eating window". Oooooh, that is cool, new and different. Really? I think they boil down to the same thing. Calorie restriction. Some people like to go with the IF plan because then they don't think they need to count. You may be active enough to make this work without counting but it sounds like you are someone who gets into the numbers. Your protein target is good. I find my macros are breaking down at about 45% each fat and protein with only 10% carb but then I have more fat to lose than you do so I'm more careful about the carbs.

    I wish you the best. It looks like you are off to a great start.

    Robin

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    lssanjose's Avatar
    lssanjose is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    As most folks around here will tell you, I am a big proponent of tracking calories and macros. I don't consider it to be obsessive at all, just being aware. But that is a personal choice. To some people it is crazy-making. To others it is being in control. I was stuck going nowhere for five months "doing everything right" on the "throw away your scale and eat your bacon" plan. I started counting calories in March and have lost 19 of the 30 lbs I hope to lose already.
    Paleo folks don't like to be told that they need to eat less, hence the popularity of the leangains approach "eat less often". I have nothing against this approach but, if one person says they just have tea for breakfast, eat lunch at noon, dinner at eight and use some self control to not snack after dinner, that's boring CW calorie restriction. Another person says they IF for 16 hours with an 8 hour "eating window". Oooooh, that is cool, new and different. Really? I think they boil down to the same thing. Calorie restriction. Some people like to go with the IF plan because then they don't think they need to count. You may be active enough to make this work without counting but it sounds like you are someone who gets into the numbers. Your protein target is good. I find my macros are breaking down at about 45% each fat and protein with only 10% carb but then I have more fat to lose than you do so I'm more careful about the carbs.

    I wish you the best. It looks like you are off to a great start.

    Robin

    I'm very fond of calories in context. I think Taubes mentions it a pinch in Why We Get Fat by virtue of eliminating carbohydrates, thereby eliminating typically two, to three hundred calories already. I think one of my favorite anecdotes in the Primal Blueprint is one of the late night meals/snacks the Korgs would subject themselves to. Another one is the jamba juice example.

  8. #8
    Paleobird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lssanjose View Post
    I'm very fond of calories in context. I think Taubes mentions it a pinch in Why We Get Fat by virtue of eliminating carbohydrates, thereby eliminating typically two, to three hundred calories already. I think one of my favorite anecdotes in the Primal Blueprint is one of the late night meals/snacks the Korgs would subject themselves to. Another one is the jamba juice example.
    Yes, both Taubes and Mark mention calories, Mark rather extensively. I think however, that within the echo chamber of the forum discussions this idea got formed that counting was somehow un-Primal and/or un-cool. People who were sick and tired of CW diets that didn't work (because they were still carb burning and therefor craving like crazy) were only too happy to chuck their scales out the window and never weigh or measure anything again. I can understand that frustration. Also somehow as we kicked out the CW about fat being "a heart attack on a plate", we went a bit "hog wild" in the opposite direction with "if some fat is healthy then more must be even better". Mark never said to eat a pound of bacon a day. But a newbie, like I was, asking the questions about, "I'm doing everything right, why am I not losing weight?" gets told repeatedly to eat more food and to eat more fat.

  9. #9
    lssanjose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Yes, both Taubes and Mark mention calories, Mark rather extensively. I think however, that within the echo chamber of the forum discussions this idea got formed that counting was somehow un-Primal and/or un-cool. People who were sick and tired of CW diets that didn't work (because they were still carb burning and therefor craving like crazy) were only too happy to chuck their scales out the window and never weigh or measure anything again. I can understand that frustration. Also somehow as we kicked out the CW about fat being "a heart attack on a plate", we went a bit "hog wild" in the opposite direction with "if some fat is healthy then more must be even better". Mark never said to eat a pound of bacon a day. But a newbie, like I was, asking the questions about, "I'm doing everything right, why am I not losing weight?" gets told repeatedly to eat more food and to eat more fat.
    It's rather interesting, as you bring it up, I'm at a stalemate for my 5'2 stature because of my 133lb number on the scale. Some will say it's muscle, but I know there's something I'm missing in all this. It's funny, too, because the only food item I really count is my ice cream intake because of the sugar content. I make sure I only get one scoop of haggen daaz. However, when it comes to vegetables, or protein (lately) it seems as though I've labeled them as open season. Sure Calories In/Out is an extremely generic formula, but when I read things about Macronutrient percentages, it makes me realize I still need to be somewhat disciplined.

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    peril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteVick View Post
    Secondly, I'm not sure about your question. Hopefully someone else will be able to come along and "correct" me, but from what I've experienced, your body will let you know if you've eaten too much fat. It's ends up not being terribly digestible. Your body reaches a point, and then just sends the excess fat on it's way.
    Correction. People who don't count and lose weight do so for two reasons - natural calorie deficit and healing metabolism. The body doesn't dump excess dietary fat so if you have too much you will put on weight. However, it is harder to overeat fay than to overeat carbs and even harder to overeat protein
    Four years Primal with influences from Jaminet & Shanahan and a focus on being anti-inflammatory. Using Primal to treat CVD and prevent stents from blocking free of drugs.

    Eat creatures nose-to-tail (animal, fowl, fish, crustacea, molluscs), a large variety of vegetables (raw, cooked and fermented, including safe starches), dairy (cheese & yoghurt), occasional fruit, cocoa, turmeric & red wine

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