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Thread: Calorie Counting Revisited : Distillation and Update page 42

  1. #411
    Robert156's Avatar
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    Primal Fuel
    Thank you for writing this

  2. #412
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    demuralist is online now Senior Member
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    One day, as a gift to myself I am going to get one of those stands for my exercise ball. http://www.amazon.com/Gaiam-Balance-.../dp/B0007VB4NE The ball itself is too low for any table on which I use the computer. Good news as I try to talk myself into the fact that I deserve it, they are getting cheaper.
    Chris
    "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It is about learning to dance in the rain."
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    My "Program": doing my version of a 4:3 - 3 day fast diet with real food every day

  3. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by demuralist View Post
    One day, as a gift to myself I am going to get one of those stands for my exercise ball. http://www.amazon.com/Gaiam-Balance-.../dp/B0007VB4NE The ball itself is too low for any table on which I use the computer. Good news as I try to talk myself into the fact that I deserve it, they are getting cheaper.
    Hmm. I have the opposite problem. My computer is on a low coffee table and the ball is a bit too high. Want to trade balls? I have the really big one that comes up to a regular table

  4. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by demuralist View Post
    One day, as a gift to myself I am going to get one of those stands for my exercise ball. Amazon.com: Gaiam Balance Ball Chair (Black): Sports & Outdoors The ball itself is too low for any table on which I use the computer. Good news as I try to talk myself into the fact that I deserve it, they are getting cheaper.
    That is so stinkin' cool!! It would be so awesome to sit on that while crafting!
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  5. #415
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    I have 3 sizes and I still sit too low. I am definitely going to get one, after researching which is best.
    Chris
    "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It is about learning to dance in the rain."
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    My journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread36279.html

    My "Program": doing my version of a 4:3 - 3 day fast diet with real food every day

  6. #416
    T Hut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    I did a post called Reality Check : Counting Calories.

    When I asked why I wasn't seeing weight loss, I was told, "Eat more fat!" and now I feel like I wasted five months trying to believe. I ate bacon and waited for the magic but it never happened.

    Recently there have been similar posts and my post was referenced. It got so huge it might be difficult to sift out the essentials. This is the distilled version.

    PB is a healthy WOE but it will not lead to weight/fat loss in my case unless I do some calorie restriction.

    I'm 49 w/30lbs to lose. No major health problems. Always physically fit. No cravings or binges. Very compliant with PB eating. I sleep well, get plenty of vitamin D, lots of play, minimal stress, tons of veggies, no processed junk, lots of good proteins and fats. Dairy free, legume free, minimal nuts and berries. Almost always good about following the PBF workout routine. I’m doing everything “right”, right?

    Body composition shift has got me into a smaller size jeans. But I am not buying “muscle is more compact than fat so ditch your scale”. At the levels I’m working out, I'm not packing on pounds of muscle. I am toning up but the reason I’m not seeing weight loss is not muscle mass gain but it would be reassuring to believe and keep eating bacon.

    I read Taubes GCBC. But there are still calories. Too many of them, even the good kind, and weight loss is not happening.

    Several pages assuring people I don’t have an eating disorder because I mentioned IFing. The IFs didn’t cause the stall, they were my attempt to break though it. Concern was appreciated, but no.

    Several comments about getting other stuff right before calorie restriction. Very valid but I think I am. Other than minimal/infrequent indulgences I such as a glass of red wine a handful of macadamia nuts or a square of dark chocolate, my whole life is Whole 30. I don’t cheat. I don’t 80/20, more like 98/2.

    Several said the reason for my stall was not enough fat. The paleo argument that primitive game was leaner and Primals are kidding ourselves about the need for so much fat does have some merit. Fat is not the demon we have been led to believe, but we shouldn't go “hog wild” with it either.

    Batty’s very perceptive comments on fat:

    "so, we have all programmed our bodies to switch from carbs to fat as fuel by bombarding ourselves with fat. now, our bodies are running happily with fat as fuel, and we are now still bombarding ourselves with its preferred fuel source. with the bombardment of dietary fat, you're not giving your body the ability to tap into its reserves.

    flip side of the coin: from what i got out of taubes' book, he asserts that it is about finding the foods that make your body want to expend more energy than it consumes - WANTING to, not forcing it to. this does not necessarily have to be achieved via caloric restriction. it could very well be the case that bombarding your body with fat causes your body to want to release more energy than it is given. if it were that easy, this would be a forum full of lean individuals, and we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place."

    This is the article that made the most sense about fat:
    The Blog of Michael R. Eades, M.D. » Low-carb and calories

    One excerpt says it all:
    "On a low-carb diet your body burns fat for energy. But it doesn’t care where this fat comes from; it can come from the diet or it can come from the fat cells or it can come from both. If you are consuming enough fat to meet all your body’s requirements, your body won’t go after the fat in the fat cells no matter how severely you restrict your carbs. You will burn dietary fat only and no body fat. And you won’t lose weight. It’s that simple.

    It has been shown countless times that when people go on low-carb diets they spontaneously reduce their caloric intake. Most foods available on low-carbohydrate diets are satiating and those following these diets get full quickly. They just don’t eat that many calories. In most studies of low-carb diets people drop their caloric intake down to the 1500-1700 kcal range and are quite satisfied. At that level of caloric intake, they need a fair amount of their own body fat to make up the difference between their dietary intake and the 2400-2600 kcal (or more) that they burn every day. As they consume this body fat, they lose weight."

    When Taubes says calorie restriction is futile, he is talking about people with carbs running their metabolisms. Those of us long since over carbs are running on fat. But do you want to burn the fat on your fork or the fat on your tush?

    When carb junkies go PB, they naturally reduce calorie intake because most favorites are off the menu. My favorites have always been greasy salty crunchy things. To me PB is like a kid in a candy store.

    There are some people who should NOT be restricting calories.

    1)People who have or have had any kind of eating disorder or OCD tendencies. You need to have a healthy relationship with food and yourself first.
    2)People who don't have all the other parts of the PB plan "dialed in" to their life. Work the fundamentals first. Primalize your pantry, get a good PBF exercise program going, really live by the ten rules Mark lays out.
    3)People who have other health conditions keeping them from losing weight. Get those things healed.
    4)People who have nutritional deficiencies. These need to get sorted out.
    5)People suffering from metabolic disorders. Let your body heal.

    So those people for whom this really can work:

    1)You are living by all 10 of the PB laws.
    2)No cheating, bingeing, or cravings you can't walk away from. This shows that you are keto adapted.
    3)You are in pretty good health. Major health concerns resolved or well on their way there.
    4)You really do have some weight/fat to lose.
    5)You are already eating what Taubes would call good calories, sugar/carbs cleaned out of your system.
    6)You can handle tracking your calorie intake without it taking over your life or killing the joy of eating.

    To distill it down to “a plan” for how to do calorie restriction:

    1)Make sure caloric restriction is right for you (see above lists)

    2)Figure out your BMR. This is the amount of calories you need to just maintain at any given weight. Google “BMR calculator”. Bunches of them. A good one will have an activity multiplier so that you can factor in how active you are into your caloric needs.

    3) figure out how fast you want to lose weight. Good rule of thumb is a 500 calorie /day deficit means about 1 lb of fat /wk shed. This is sustainable. So BMR minus your deficit number gives you your target calories.

    4)Figure your protein needs. Some people base this on Lean Body Mass which is current weight minus your body fat content. This can be difficult and unreliable to measure. Another way to calculate this is based on ideal weight. This is your “hot stuff in swim wear (HSIS)” weight. You can determine this by a BMI calculator. There are lots of those as well. Your HSIS weight in pounds is the number of grams of protein you need.

    5)Target calories-protein needs gives you what you have left to “play with” between carbs and fats. Getting your protein has to come first. If you eat less carbs you get to have more fat. But whatever you do, don’t skimp on the protein. We get caught up in all the yummy fats and then are satiated long before we get enough protein while going overboard on calories in the process.

    1 gram fat=9 calories 1 gram carb=4 calories 1 gram protein=4 calories

    6) The “trick” is getting enough protein without going “over-budget” on calories.

    This means three things:
    a)Leaner choices in protein. Eggs, bison, venison, rabbit, lean game birds.
    b)Leaner cuts of meat. Flank steak not brisket. Beef heart jerky is great. Put bacon on hold for a while.
    c)Not adding fat onto food like gobs of mayo, cooking oil, and butter. Just appreciate the food.

    Nobody is advocating going all fat phobic Pritikin style. There is still plenty of fat in the protein.

    7)Track your daily numbers on any one of the many programs out there. I prefer Sparkpeople.

    I have been averaging about 1300-1400 calories a day and I don’t feel in the least bit hungry. My workouts have been better than ever and I credit that to the increased protein.

    And I’ve dropped 12 lbs plus I’ve lost an inch off my waist and two inches off my rear. Yeah, it works.

    If people would go back and read the PB, there would be a lot less objection to the idea of calorie counting. It's all in there. Protein portions, calorie targets.

    Before I made these changes, I wasn't tracking (since everyone kept telling me to ditch the scale and eat my bacon) but reverse engineering it I was eating about 2400 cal/day with maybe a 30/15/55 ratio of protein/carb/fat. Now its 1400 with ratios of 40/15/45. So carbs have stayed the same, I just moved some from the fat column to the protein and cut the overall quantity.

    For people who have a background of eating disorders the whole idea of calorie counting is a bad flashback, it attaches to very emotional issues. For me it's just about using a tool.
    Some people are not ready physically to deal with calorie tracking. People who are very overweight and whose diets are very SAD do lose weight just by switching to PB on the "eat bacon and be happy" plan because it is better than where they started. Their weight loss will stall at some point. That's when they need to come back and reread this thread. But, between going PB and stalling, they get a chance to do a lot of healing and I'm all for that.
    This is absolutely beautiful, thank you.

  7. #417
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    Eeek!

    I'm confused...

    I'm going paleo on Monday (even taken a whole week off work to get stuck in!) and really worked on ditching CW on the fat issue (instead of avoiding it, embrace it and use it to sate your appetite). That was the message that clearly shone through in Mark's book for me (I've literally just finished re-reading an article he posted entitle"How to eat more fat" on the 30th Nov, too!) - along with the consensus that you can eat as much of these foods as you like, unlike with conventional diets.

    Now I've just come across this post and I'm losing faith...is it all guna be about number crunching? Do I still stick a slice of bacon in butter on when I'm hungry as a way of sating hunger, or am I, using that fat to replace my own fat being used for energy??

    My poor boggled newbie brain...

  8. #418
    Fiji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenniejenjen View Post
    I'm confused...

    I'm going paleo on Monday (even taken a whole week off work to get stuck in!) and really worked on ditching CW on the fat issue (instead of avoiding it, embrace it and use it to sate your appetite). That was the message that clearly shone through in Mark's book for me (I've literally just finished re-reading an article he posted entitle"How to eat more fat" on the 30th Nov, too!) - along with the consensus that you can eat as much of these foods as you like, unlike with conventional diets.

    Now I've just come across this post and I'm losing faith...is it all guna be about number crunching? Do I still stick a slice of bacon in butter on when I'm hungry as a way of sating hunger, or am I, using that fat to replace my own fat being used for energy??

    My poor boggled newbie brain...
    Below is what Paleobird has said about the original purpose of this thread. As someone just starting out, I think you should stick with the basics of step 1 as laid out in the book and revisit things if and when things stop working for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Hey Otzi,
    Thanks for starting the carb cycling thread. I think there is a time and a place for that in some peoples' lives. I never meant to sound like I was against it on principle, just that, here and now, it doesn't work for me.

    I think it's all about the stages of the weight loss journey.

    Stage 1) lower carbs but be liberal with the fat in order to stave off cravings. Don't count anything just focus on healing any underlying medical concerns.
    Stage 2) lower fat and raise protein while curtailing overall calories to lose stored fat. This is where I am now.
    Stage 3) carb cycle to get those last few BF% points lower if that's really what you want to do.

    So it makes sense to have a separate thread to discuss Stage 3 in detail rather than try to have it be an either/or discussion here. I meant this thread to be about helping people to transition from Stage 1 to Stage 2 without getting stuck in Stage 1 and not seeing the weight loss they were hoping for.

  9. #419
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    Pebbles67 is online now Senior Member
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    +1

    I lost 65 pounds eating as much fat as my body needed. Now having been Primal 16 months, I am looking at raising protein intake and watching overall calories. Follow the book. Do Not follow this thread, do not do the Leptin Reset, do not IF or anything else until you have been Primal for a while. (Several months)

    Good Luck!
    Paula Primal since 9/24/2010
    "Our greatest foes, and whom we must chiefly combat, are within." Miguel de Cervantes

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    MFP username: MDAPebbles67

  10. #420
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    Now I've just come across this post and I'm losing faith...is it all guna be about number crunching? Do I still stick a slice of bacon in butter on when I'm hungry as a way of sating hunger, or am I, using that fat to replace my own fat being used for energy??
    I agree- just follow the plan. I mess around with tracking calories and I find that whether I track or eat what I want (per his parameters), I'm around 1200-1500 calories a day. I don't "force" anything (like I don't eat 1/4 cup of coconut oil to eat more fat), I just eat the foods the man says I can eat, with treats like chocolate and wine in limited amounts. I eat carbs and fruit. My meals look very rounded and they are. And days differ- sometimes I want more carbs, so I eat more carbs, some days I have more fats.

    I think the people here who get into seriously odd eating habits are just experimenting or have other health issues. I also don't believe that you can eat as much as you want as long as it is fat. Seriously, you can't eat 3000 calories of fat, as an average woman and lose weight. He does expect some contol over food intake for people trying to lose weight. This method works because 14oo calories of his allowable foods include a lot of great nutrition and fuel and are really satisfying. CW fails because 1400 calories of their foods don't get you the nutrition you need and are not satisfying enough to keep you satisfied for a long term change.

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