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Thread: Calorie Counting Revisited : Distillation and Update page 13

  1. #121
    ChocoTaco369's Avatar
    ChocoTaco369 is online now Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    If your only point is to bash Primal on a primal site.....?..............Perhaps a body building site would suit you better.
    Why would you think I'm bashing Primal? Mark has said himself that the goal of Primal is optimal health. He has personally stated he's not trying to create shredded body builders. It just happens to be that fat loss is a side effect of optimal health. Make no mistake about it, being ripped isn't a sign of optimal health. The body likes to hang onto a little body fat for survival purposes. This is why Primal isn't the optimal tool for really losing weight.

    Just look at your methods. Mark advocates 50-100g of carbs a day for fat loss and 100-150g of carbs a day. You're doing keto, and he specifically says he doesn't recommend long term keto due to the lack of vegetables. You yourself aren't following the ideal Primal path because something else works better for you. Carb cycling is the same. I use sweet potatoes for a carb refeed, so it's still a Primal food. It just isn't the optimal Primal lifestyle. That's not bashing it in any way. It's a modification while still staying within the guidelines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    And I have tried carb cycling. It didn't work. I gained weight. You, by your sig line #s, are at a BF% where I think that carb cycling could very well be beneficial to you. If I ever get to 14%, maybe I will try it again. For those of us not on that level of leanness yet, increased carbs just undo progress. You are also probably male, right? In case you haven't figured it out by now, women's bodies are different. We store fat much more efficiently and release fat much more reluctantly. Again, I'm glad your way works for you. Mine works for me. Let's leave it at that. Shall we?
    Women use carb cycling regularly for body building as well. Generally, carb cycling is used once you've reached average weight and you're trying to get down to low BF%'s. If your BF% is in the 20's or 30's, people generally don't carb cycle. However, I'm interested in what method you tried using. Did you try high/low/no/high/low/no? Did you try high/low/high/low? I would be willing to bet you'd be best off with 5-6 days of VLC followed by 1-2 days of high carb instead of switching it up daily or semi-daily. I still say that completely abstaining from carbs 100% of the time will lead to more plateaus and increase insulin resistance down the road. Your body really does lose the ability to efficiently process carbs when they're totally absent.

    Like I said, I'll be doing a refeed this weekend myself.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by KestrelSF View Post
    Perhaps the key here, and the clue is the part about "carb cycling is the #1 choice of body builders" is that carb cycling is probably most effective when one is doing weight training with greater carb intake on work out days. Without stressed muscles all ready to soak up the glucose you might get a different effect.
    This is true to a degree. The heaviest carb meals are supposed to follow post-workout. If you're not weight training, you can still carb cycle. You should just cut the carbs. Instead of shooting for 250-300g of carbs, shoot for 150g. That way, it's still a spike that'll boost leptin and insulin levels. The reason why carb cycling works is because it promotes insulin and leptin sensitivity. Yes, eating high carb regularly will make you insulin resistant. However, eating low carb for long periods of time will as well. Your body loses the ability to efficiently process the carbs. That's why carb cycling works. When you pair low carb with that regular boost of starch, you're still in an overall low carb state, but that starch boost keeps your body familiar with processing the carbs and keeps leptin levels from bottoming out, preventing the plateau effect. Eating starch here and there will help your insulin sensitivity. You just can't eat it every day. Every day starch is a no-no IMO, but incorporating it for a few meals a week keeps the body on its toes.

    Quote Originally Posted by KestrelSF View Post
    Again, it's very possible that you are BOTH right but simply haven't taken into account all the variables. i.e. cyclic low carb works for ChocoTaco, at his age, sex, with his activity level, etc. etc. but wouldn't work for Paleobird with another set of variables.
    I still say it would work for her. She just has to find the right formula. The problem with carb cycling is all the methods are written by body builders. I'm a 24 year old male, I'm in very good shape and I work out 6 days a week. I do sprints, squats, deadlifts, multiple kinds of presses - I work my ass off regularly, so I can easily take in a 300g carb day and see the benefits. However, I realize I'm not the norm. For the average person, that 250-300g figure is probably high. You just need to find out what works for you, but the science behind it is concrete. Primal is all about hormone control. You just need to find your sweet spots.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by spakesneaker View Post
    Carb re-feeds seem like torture. It seems like you really cannot even add fat to the carbs, which is what usually makes them tasty (like butter with sweet potatoes). I love me some sweet potatoes, but eating 250g carbohydrate worth of one would involve forcing myself to eat past the point of satiety to a point of serious discomfort.
    I've found ways around it. Typical high fat days are definitely a lot more expansive, but I've found ways to make the refeeds fun. A nice, seasoned chicken breast cooked in white wine and lemon juice with 3 baked sweet potatoes covered in cinnamon and stevia is definitely a good meal. The carb cycles allow you to vary things a bit. Soak some beans. Eat a little more fruit. Cook with more white wine and lemon or lime juice. And are you a sushi fan? Because low fat fish with white rice is totally fine. Yes, rice is a grain, but white rice is as close to a pure starch as possible. It's arguably better than potatoes due to the lack of toxins. If you're a sushi head, a quick carb refeed is a dream come true.

    I really love cooking though. My journal is pretty much just food porn. If you don't enjoy cooking, I can see it being a real chore. It definitely takes some creativity to dress up starch.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 05-04-2011 at 09:11 PM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Just look at your methods. Mark advocates 50-100g of carbs a day for fat loss and 100-150g of carbs a day. You're doing keto, and he specifically says he doesn't recommend long term keto due to the lack of vegetables. You yourself aren't following the ideal Primal path because something else works better for you. Carb cycling is the same. I use sweet potatoes for a carb refeed, so it's still a Primal food. It just isn't the optimal Primal lifestyle. That's not bashing it in any way. It's a modification while still staying within the guidelines.


    Women use carb cycling regularly for body building as well. Generally, carb cycling is used once you've reached average weight and you're trying to get down to low BF%'s. If your BF% is in the 20's or 30's, people generally don't carb cycle. However, I'm interested in what method you tried using. Did you try high/low/no/high/low/no? Did you try high/low/high/low? I would be willing to bet you'd be best off with 5-6 days of VLC followed by 1-2 days of high carb instead of switching it up daily or semi-daily. I still say that completely abstaining from carbs 100% of the time will lead to more plateaus and increase insulin resistance down the road. Your body really does lose the ability to efficiently process carbs when they're totally absent.
    Let's get one thing straight shall we? I never said you should not be doing whatever you want to do. I just said it didn't work *for me*. You are the one pushing your agenda on my life and I would appreciate it if you backed off a bit.

    I stay in keto and get plenty of veggies. Mark has never said keto itself is a problem. Quite the opposite.
    My BF is not in the lean category where your method would work even by your own figures.
    Who said anyone was completely abstaining from carbs 100% of the time? Not me. I like my blueberries. Carbs are not "totally absent" for me.
    I was doing body building and carb cycling before you were born (back in the 80s). It doesn't work for me. Let it go.

  5. #125
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    I'm not sure why you're being so defensive. It's always my goal to give someone an alternate perspective to think over. You being older than me is irrelevant. That fallacy is one of the first you'll learn in any critical reasoning class. There's a reason why I asked you what your method was when you tried. For example, you mention fruit. Carb refeeds deal with starches. If you tried a refeed with fruit, it would be a terrible failure. You want very little fructose - maybe 1 to 2 servings a day. None would be much better than copious.

    Here's the reality - none of us truly know what works best for us. We may think we do, but 6 months from now, a new study will get released that'll show us something we've been doing horribly wrong for years. This forum is all about providing alternate methods to help us all out. It's not about speaking authoritatively and striking down anyone with a thought different than ours. If ANY of us were doing everything right, none of us would be here at all. Outside of a 7 week CKD, I have done a total of 2 48 hour carb refeeds since going primal a few months ago. They truly did help me bust a plateau I was stuck on since before I went totally primal. That is why I'll be doing a third. It really works.

    I'm not here to "push my agenda". I'm here to help you, and sometimes help means tearing down your defenses and letting go of preconceived notions. If you choose to sweep everything I'm saying under the rug, that's fine, but if this all so much as helps one other person on this forum, then it was worth it.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  6. #126
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    Paleobird wasn't asking for your help. Your opinion/advice is more likely to be received when invited.

    http://work911.com/communication/conflictadvice.htm

    ps Yes, I am just as guilty, by making this post, lol!
    Last edited by Dragonfly; 05-04-2011 at 09:56 PM.

  7. #127
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    My goal was to never tell her what to do. It somehow turned into that. I'm arguing against the counting calories approach. I think it's mostly hormonal, and the reason why people find themselves counting calories is because of the reduced leptin levels and reduced leptin sensitivity from a prolonged low-carb, no-starch lifestyle. I'm simply advocating that calories would count less if you threw in the occasional carb refeed. It doesn't mean you have to carb cycle. It just means you have to throw in that odd day every now and again where you cut out fats and toss in a few sweet potatoes for good measure. That should, in theory, help boost your leptin sensitivity and help you break through that plateau caused by prolonged VLC.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 05-04-2011 at 10:08 PM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Most people don't ask for help. It doesn't mean you shouldn't offer, especially if you have useful input. That's what open forums are all about.
    Huh? I see plenty of posts daily asking for help here.

    If you offer and someone is obviously not interested, I really wonder why you would persist.

    And "useful" is in the eye of the receiver, not the giver.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    My goal was to never tell her what to do. It somehow turned into that. I'm arguing against the counting calories approach. I think it's mostly hormonal, and the reason why people find themselves counting calories is because of the reduced leptin levels and reduced leptin sensitivity from a prolonged low-carb, no-starch lifestyle. I'm simply advocating that calories would count less if you threw in the occasional carb refeed. It doesn't mean you have to carb cycle. It just means you have to throw in that odd day every now and again where you cut out fats and toss in a few sweet potatoes for good measure. That should, in theory, help boost your leptin sensitivity and help you break through that plateau caused by prolonged VLC.
    Ok, so you completely edited your post after I quoted the original, lol!

    Your information is fine & useful for some people, but if you carefully read the OP's first post, you would see that she has broken through her plateau just fine and doesn't need any help.
    "
    "I have been averaging about 1300-1400 calories a day and I don’t feel in the least bit hungry. My workouts have been better than ever and I credit that to the increased protein.

    And I’ve dropped 12 lbs plus I’ve lost an inch off my waist and two inches off my rear. Yeah, it works."


    And now I am taking my own advice and stepping out of this conversation!

  10. #130
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    I don't doubt that your intentions are good but you are really being a bit pushy. I have asked you politely to back off. Now back off.

    Please don't lecture someone who has taught critical thinking courses at the University level about logical fallacies. My age is very relevant because I have had a quarter of a century more than you have had in which to read studies, do critical thinking, try things out in real life and figure out what works best *for me*. Maybe when you are coming up on 50 you will realize that you really sounded like an arrogant little pup at 24. I do know what works best for me. You don't. So do what works best for you, just don't presume to tell me what I should do.

    (And a few berries is not "copious" fructose and I wasn't using it as a re-feed, merely responding to your dire warning about the dangers of nil carbs 100% of the time.) You jump to erroneous conclusions easily.

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