Calorie Counting Revisited : Distillation and Update page 11

[Paleobird]

That's not true. When carbs are routinely restricted from your body, your body becomes less efficient at processing them. Eating 100g of carbs a day with an occasional starch is great for insulin sensitivity. Eating VLC all the time, never incorporating fruits or starches and constantly slipping into ketosis isn't. Your body loses the mechanisms to handle them, just like your immune system suffers in a sterile environment. Carb cycling is far more effective at burning fat than both ketosis and primal. That is a fact, and it's why carb cycling is the #1 choice of body builders. Primal is a far more effective tool for overall health than fat loss, and if you disagree with me, perhaps you need to get your facts straight.

250g of carbs is not an insanely high amount of carbs. For CW Americans, that is a low day. It's far too high to eat every day for sure, but you will see better results from eating cyclical high carb days than being VLC all the time. Keto plateaus just like primal does. Ketones aren't magic. Carb cycling...it really is.

There is too much brainwashing around here that carbs are pure evil. Remember the hump we all had to get over when we figured out saturated fat wasn't bad, but actually healthy? It's the same thing with carbs. They aren't evil. You just have to know how to use them.

If your only point is to bash Primal on a primal site.....?..............Perhaps a body building site would suit you better.

And I have tried carb cycling. It didn't work. I gained weight. You, by your sig line #s, are at a BF% where I think that carb cycling could very well be beneficial to you. If I ever get to 14%, maybe I will try it again. For those of us not on that level of leanness yet, increased carbs just undo progress. You are also probably male, right? In case you haven't figured it out by now, women's bodies are different. We store fat much more efficiently and release fat much more reluctantly. Again, I'm glad your way works for you. Mine works for me. Let's leave it at that. Shall we?

[Paleobird]

For me the whole idea of that carb cycling and refeeds made my head spin. I can't handle carbs above 100 g even for one day, even when I'm cycling 100 miles! It also seemed very regulated and very unlike what our ancestors may have done. My life is complicated enough without varying the eating so much in this manner.

If it works for you, great, but it doesn't for me.

Provided you are eating sufficient protein you won't be losing significant muscle, provided you are weight bearing during some exercise you won't lose significant amounts of bone density. You will however, lose a little of each just because your overall mass is coming down. If you get it right you just lose more fat as a ratio of what is being lost.

I would be interested to know if ChooTaco369 is male, what works for males doesn't always work for females, in fact, quite the reverse very often due to the additional overlay of cycling hormones. I'm going to post about cortisol and the effect on other hormones when my brain returns - it is currently on vacation after a long day of Slovak language editing!

I agree Kelda, too much to think about.
Yes, we really need to be sure to get enough protein. This can not be said too many times.
If you're at 14%BF, you're probably a guy. Even when I did competitive bodybuilding, I was only about 15%.
p.s. I just checked his journal. Not only is he male, he's also 24. Talk about different metabolisms!

[Paleobird]

It's early yet, but I'm trying to up my protein, and have lowered my fat a little (as suggested in the OP), and my scale was down a bit this morning. It's looking promising because I've been at the same weight, for a couple of weeks.

Great! It's fun to see progress isn't it?

[Diana Renata]

It's funny... thinking back to my pre-Primal running days, as I was slowly cutting out carbs, it appears that I was doing a lot of what this thread recommends, and it was working fairly well. Really the only non-Primal things I was enjoying were my Kashi TLC bars (OMG dark chocolate cherry) and my bi-weekly brick oven pizza (which I still miss terribly.)

I've started going back to some of my old favorites from that time- whey protein shakes and yogurt. At the time I was low-fat, which is the only difference now. I'm not fat-phobic. Whey and Greek yogurt do provide nice doses of protein with limited calories and is appearing to be helpful. I'll tell you for sure when I drop down below 140, or get my azz back into my size 6's. I won't ever be 125 lbs again because I have more muscle now.

[KestrelSF]

If your only point is to bash Primal on a primal site.....?..............Perhaps a body building site would suit you better.

And I have tried carb cycling. It didn't work. I gained weight. You, by your sig line #s, are at a BF% where I think that carb cycling could very well be beneficial to you. If I ever get to 14%, maybe I will try it again. For those of us not on that level of leanness yet, increased carbs just undo progress. You are also probably male, right? In case you haven't figured it out by now, women's bodies are different. We store fat much more efficiently and release fat much more reluctantly. Again, I'm glad your way works for you. Mine works for me. Let's leave it at that. Shall we?

Perhaps the key here, and the clue is the part about "carb cycling is the #1 choice of body builders" is that carb cycling is probably most effective when one is doing weight training with greater carb intake on work out days. Without stressed muscles all ready to soak up the glucose you might get a different effect.

I can't help but think of something Gary Taubes said on Robb Wolf's last podcast, when he took Matt LaLonde, aka "the kraken" to task for talking about things like it was settled and that in science you can't talk like you are really sure of something until you've done a LOT of controlled clinical trials. So to be fair, I don't think either of y'all can be as sure as you both are without something better than a theory and personal experience.

Again, it's very possible that you are BOTH right but simply haven't taken into account all the variables. i.e. cyclic low carb works for ChocoTaco, at his age, sex, with his activity level, etc. etc. but wouldn't work for Paleobird with another set of variables.

I think that one could say with certainty, after looking at all the time both of you guys have spent posting lots of good information, that both of you guys are concerned with helping others in their journey here and deserve a lot of credit.

[Paleobird]

Again, it's very possible that you are BOTH right but simply haven't taken into account all the variables. i.e. cyclic low carb works for ChocoTaco, at his age, sex, with his activity level, etc. etc. but wouldn't work for Paleobird with another set of variables.

I think that one could say with certainty, after looking at all the time both of you guys have spent posting lots of good information, that both of you guys are concerned with helping others in their journey here and deserve a lot of credit.

That's what I was trying to say above. He is 24, male, and on his way from 14% to 10%BF. I am twice his age, female and don't really need or want to be anywhere near those kind of BF #s agin in my life. His system works for him, mine works for me.
The thing is, when I was his age, I was a competitive bodybuilder. Even then, the carb cycling didn't work for women the way that it did for the guys. To each his or her own. Just don't bash Primal on a Primal site, OK?

[Paleobird]

It's funny... thinking back to my pre-Primal running days, as I was slowly cutting out carbs, it appears that I was doing a lot of what this thread recommends, and it was working fairly well. Really the only non-Primal things I was enjoying were my Kashi TLC bars (OMG dark chocolate cherry) and my bi-weekly brick oven pizza (which I still miss terribly.)

I've started going back to some of my old favorites from that time- whey protein shakes and yogurt. At the time I was low-fat, which is the only difference now. I'm not fat-phobic. Whey and Greek yogurt do provide nice doses of protein with limited calories and is appearing to be helpful. I'll tell you for sure when I drop down below 140, or get my azz back into my size 6's. I won't ever be 125 lbs again because I have more muscle now.

Yep, I think that it is good that we have recognized that the fat phobic Pritikin style diet doesn't work and that your body does need fat in order to function well. I just object to the "some is good therefore more is better" way of thinking about fat that I think has become common on this forum.

You're aiming for those size 6s. Excellent. I'm shooting for my size 8s. I have this one pair of really nice black leather pants in size 8 (bought them on the net, they sent the wrong size, meant to send them back, never did, found them recently in the nether regions of my closet). When those button and I can still breathe, I will take a picture of my azz and post it.

[Diana Renata]

Yep, I think that it is good that we have recognized that the fat phobic Pritikin style diet doesn't work and that your body does need fat in order to function well. I just object to the "some is good therefore more is better" way of thinking about fat that I think has become common on this forum.

You're aiming for those size 6s. Excellent. I'm shooting for my size 8s. I have this one pair of really nice black leather pants in size 8 (bought them on the net, they sent the wrong size, meant to send them back, never did, found them recently in the nether regions of my closet). When those button and I can still breathe, I will take a picture of my azz and post it.

Yeah that "more is better" mentality has gotten me into a lot of trouble over the last few years and left me stuck. I really have to learn to moderate myself, and I hope I've gotten better through trial and error. Currently fluctuating between 300-600 calorie deficits day to day, with one allowed pig-out per week which should take me to no more than +400-500 calories. So it's basically... 6 steps forward, 1 step back. I can be ok with that.

LOL- I like that idea. When I get back into my 6's comfortably, I'm posting an azz shot too. I have so many pairs of jeans that I could be wearing. My wardrobe would practically double. For now they're packed away where they can't make me feel guilty. Once the 8's get loose, I'll drag them back out.

Been toying with reviving my once weekly 36-hr IF that I used to do also. Maybe later if I stall out at the current routine, I'll gradually incorporate a longer fast one day a week. As it stands I'm doing coconut oil in the AM to get me going, a small lunch, and a full dinner, with optional dessert. 95-115g protein, averaging 1200-1500 calories. So far so good.

*funny note- I was actually planning dessert tonight but dinner left me so full, I didn't want it.

[spakesneaker]

Carb re-feeds seem like torture. It seems like you really cannot even add fat to the carbs, which is what usually makes them tasty (like butter with sweet potatoes). I love me some sweet potatoes, but eating 250g carbohydrate worth of one would involve forcing myself to eat past the point of satiety to a point of serious discomfort.

[zoebird]

I would say on those days when I have a "refeed" it's between 100 and 125 grams of carbohydrates. It usually takes the form of sweet potato

But, there's no cycling or what have you. It's really just -- if i'm hungry. But, usually Friday or Saturday is our "carb loading" meal, and DH has sweet potato on his heavy lifting days (because otherwise, he feels like a zombie). But, it still is around 100 grams. *shrug* I dunno. it's working.