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Thread: Dr. Cordain's Newest and Greatest Thoughts on Saturated Fat page 3

  1. #21
    Stabby's Avatar
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    No my alternative hypothesis was that they were cooking isolated seal oil which is high in polyunsaturated fat and isolated oils oxidize readily.

    So let's see. 1. You are going to stick with an inductive argument that has multiple explanations and simply assert that it is just such an amazing argument. 2. No you aren't going to offer any empirical evidence. 3. Now I have to argue that saturated fat is beneficial, for what reason, exactly? Okay well low carb diets are the best for lipid profiles Modification of Lipoproteins by Very Low-Carbohydrate Diets, and they need to include a lot of fat. Whether it be saturated or monounsaturated I don't think really matters but if people like saturated fat then I see no reason not to eat it. That is basically the position of everyone around here.
    Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

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  2. #22
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    When I read Cordain's book several years ago it felt like he was astride the fence, and at least he now seems to be leaning towards the primal side.
    This time, like all times, is a very good one, if we but know what to do with it. Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Any given day you are surrounded by 10,000 idiots.
    Lao Tsu, founder of Taoism

  3. #23
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    He never said it causes heart attacks just a plaque in the arteries which may be benign to some extent, but it's not something i'd want for a lot of other reasons.

    Cordains entire premise, as well as the one of Sisson, is that because our genome grew on a particular diet, that it must be the better way of eating. This premise is a large assumption, so to disqualify something for being an assumption or empirical doesn't seem fair

  4. #24
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    If I have it right, Stabby argues that the basic Inuit diet as well as other HG diets have been generally found to reduce biomarkers that cause various cardiovascular diseases and plaque formation (as well as to reduce actual CVD). The reasonable conclusion is that since we know these diets reduce biomarkers for CVD and plaque formation, we should be hesitant to look at diets high in saturated fat as the probable cause of an individual case of plaque formation. That seems reasonable.

    Straxville points out that at least one Inuit had plaque formation. He speculates that the cause was consumption of saturated fat, since the Inuit consume saturated fat.

    Stabby replies that the Inuit consumed an unusual food (cooked seal oil) which could reasonably be assumed to be a possible cause of plaque formation. Stabby's alternative hypothesis was about cooking seal oil, not cooking saturated fat in general.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bookstorecowboy View Post
    If I have it right, Stabby argues that the basic Inuit diet as well as other HG diets have been generally found to reduce biomarkers that cause various cardiovascular diseases and plaque formation (as well as to reduce actual CVD). The reasonable conclusion is that since we know these diets reduce biomarkers for CVD and plaque formation, we should be hesitant to look at diets high in saturated fat as the probable cause of an individual case of plaque formation. That seems reasonable.

    Straxville points out that at least one Inuit had plaque formation. He speculates that the cause was consumption of saturated fat, since the Inuit consume saturated fat.

    Stabby replies that the Inuit consumed an unusual food (cooked seal oil) which could reasonably be assumed to be a possible cause of plaque formation. Stabby's alternative hypothesis was about cooking seal oil, not cooking saturated fat in general.
    Nice breakdown. Think we can follow up?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bookstorecowboy View Post
    If I have it right, Stabby argues that the basic Inuit diet as well as other HG diets have been generally found to reduce biomarkers that cause various cardiovascular diseases and plaque formation (as well as to reduce actual CVD). The reasonable conclusion is that since we know these diets reduce biomarkers for CVD and plaque formation, we should be hesitant to look at diets high in saturated fat as the probable cause of an individual case of plaque formation. That seems reasonable.

    Straxville points out that at least one Inuit had plaque formation. He speculates that the cause was consumption of saturated fat, since the Inuit consume saturated fat.

    Stabby replies that the Inuit consumed an unusual food (cooked seal oil) which could reasonably be assumed to be a possible cause of plaque formation. Stabby's alternative hypothesis was about cooking seal oil, not cooking saturated fat in general.

    Theres not really been any studies showing that the Inuit have less plaque formation. There is some evidence that they might not have had a lot of heart attacks, but that doesn't mean they didn't have plaque. And there were 2 autopsys that showed that they indeed had plaque formation that resembles what you see in post-agricultural times.

  7. #27
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    What you don't seem to be understanding from Stabby's argument is that the plaque formation could just as easily have been a result of cooking in marine oil.

    I haven't researched this, but I'm assuming marine oil is high in polyunsaturated fatty acids. PUFAs have a lot of double bonds and are therefore easily oxidized when exposed to air and/or heat. It is entirely possible that this, not the saturated fat, is what caused plaque formation.

    Personally, I think the case of the Tokelauans is one of the most compelling for absolving saturated fat. These were people who got a huge portion of their daily calories from coconut, which is to say saturated fat. And yet heart disease for them was rare. If SFA was a primary agent of cardiovascular disease, it should have been common in that population.

  8. #28
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    bill_89 the evidence is that plaque formation itself is not "heart disease" and heart disease takes low level inflammation plus plaque formation. So while a lot of people may have poor circulation, and clogged arteries, it might not lead to a coronary event in the absence of imflammation(IE:wheat)

    There is good evidence that after a fatty meal the circulatory system reacts to it and is less "dilated"

  9. #29
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    I didn't really say that Inuit or other hunter-gatherer diets were particularly protective, just that there was no evidence that saturated fat causes atherosclerosis. Indeed it could be like Cordain suggests that the French could have massive atherosclerosis and just aren't dying from heart attacks due to low inflammation but I simply haven't seen the evidence.

    Cordain's deal is that he looks at what he thinks the original paleo diet way back when was like and then tries to prove them as best he can. Then eventually he softens his position if it doesn't turn out to be true. With the whole Paleo Diet concept I think that he had the real empirical evidence prior to writing the book, or at least what he called the empirical evidence. The argument against grains and sugar and whatnot isn't contingent upon them being novel foods, and indeed that is just an assumption that is supposed to produce a hypothesis but some people treat it as an argument in itself. The Paleo Diet made sense since he had reasoned that grains, dairy and processed foods were bad, thus he says we ought to eat the diet of the Paleolithic era. He is great for research but since he is an academic with a book we have to be extremely critical of everything he says. Pretty much anything that could possibly support the Paleo Diet concept was espoused like high muscle-protein intake, acid/alkaline ash balance thingy, palmitic acid causes atherosclerosis and whatnot. I'm not so sure if any of these are necessarily right or if they all dairy is necessarily a bad thing or just the way it is produced most of the time.

    Anyway he says that palmitic acid is a non-issue and that it is fine in moderation, which is consistent with the evidence. Just because there wasn't tons of something during the bulk of evolution doesn't mean that it is bad and I have never seen any evidence that the simple raising of cholesterol levels from it produces more atherogenic lipoproteins. In fact here it is associated with less progression of atherosclerosis here Dietary fats, carbohydrate, and progression of coronary atherosclerosis in postmenopausal women That doesn't mean that a pound of butter per day won't cause atherosclerosis since these are differences in normal populations, but it does pretty much refute the notion that more palmitic acid means more cholesterol means more plaque.
    Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

    Anyone who wants to talk nutrition should PM me!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Bork Bork View Post
    Meh. I'm starting to feel like reading Dr. Cordain (especially with him constantly changing his mind, so it seems) is like watching Dr. Oz.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

    I respect people more for changing their minds in the face of better information. I see no point in sticking to your guns when you know its wrong just because you don't want to admit you were wrong. If I'd done that, I'd still be dreadfully ill eating my healthy whole grains and canola oil.

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