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Thread: Dr. Cordain's Newest and Greatest Thoughts on Saturated Fat page 2

  1. #11
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    Why would anyone want to increase plaque formation even if it wasn't a riskfactor for a coronary event? I think from a quality of life point of view this would not be smart, and I'm glad Cordains recommendations are not static.

    he talks about it http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/wp-co...d-Sat-Fats.mp3

    And I agree that this is an important finding that needs to be discussed more.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Toad View Post
    Dr. Cordain wrote a book chapter and published a paper (with our team member Pedro Bastos) where he shows that saturated fat consumption in ancient hunter-gatherer populations were usually 10-15% above the recommended 10% of energy from saturated fats, yet they were non-atherogenic.
    As if, realistically speaking, he could do this.

    The consumption of saturated fat by "ancient hunter-gatherers" was likely quite high (and quite likely higher than Cordain thinks even now). But the idea that he could put an exact figure on it is ridiculous. I mean ... you know ... they're all dead, and the same goes for the game they pursued.

    This is the man who said previously that wild game was lean. He did base this on game he'd shot. But then he wasn't in a position to shoot game that would have been around in a landscape that hadn't been impacted on by agricultural, and then industrial, man. The fecundity of parts of the Americas pre-contact is truly staggering. People used to kill deer in parts of what's now the U.S. where white men hadn't yet been and find it had four inches of fat on it. Of course, as settlers encroached and hunted and fished the game out and destroyed its habitat, it began very rapidly to get both scarcer and smaller. There are accounts of people moving into newly opened areas from the East and writing in disbelief about the quantity of game and its sizeónot knowing that a hundred or so years before people newly arrived from Europe were writing in the same way about the East coast.

    And he says "yet they were non-atherogenic". Well, again, he can't look at the arteries of "ancient hunter gatherers", so he doesn't know what state they were in. That's just speculation. (I'm sure their arteries would have been fine, but no one can claim to know what they were like. As i said, they're all, you know, dead. Their heads have been cold for millennia.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis View Post
    As if, realistically speaking, he could do this.

    The consumption of saturated fat by "ancient hunter-gatherers" was likely quite high (and quite likely higher than Cordain thinks even now). But the idea that he could put an exact figure on it is ridiculous. I mean ... you know ... they're all dead, and the same goes for the game they pursued.

    This is the man who said previously that wild game was lean. He did base this on game he'd shot. But then he wasn't in a position to shoot game that would have been around in a landscape that hadn't been impacted on by agricultural, and then industrial, man. The fecundity of parts of the Americas pre-contact is truly staggering. People used to kill deer in parts of what's now the U.S. where white men hadn't yet been and find it had four inches of fat on it. Of course, as settlers encroached and hunted and fished the game out and destroyed its habitat, it began very rapidly to get both scarcer and smaller. There are accounts of people moving into newly opened areas from the East and writing in disbelief about the quantity of game and its size—not knowing that a hundred or so years before people newly arrived from Europe were writing in the same way about the East coast.

    And he says "yet they were non-atherogenic". Well, again, he can't look at the arteries of "ancient hunter gatherers", so he doesn't know what state they were in. That's just speculation. (I'm sure their arteries would have been fine, but no one can claim to know what they were like. As i said, they're all, you know, dead. Their heads have been cold for millennia.)

    The obvious conclusion to the entire argument you're making is that there is no point in trying to even emulate a "primal" or paleo diet given our distance from it. Please click the audio in my post and you'll see that there WAS an inuit who was frozen and pathologically examined and was found to have plaque formation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by straxville View Post
    Why would anyone want to increase plaque formation even if it wasn't a riskfactor for a coronary event? I think from a quality of life point of view this would not be smart, and I'm glad Cordains recommendations are not static.

    he talks about it http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/wp-co...d-Sat-Fats.mp3

    And I agree that this is an important finding that needs to be discussed more.
    This would be known as the fallacy of affirming the consequent. If saturated fat causes atherosclerosis then the Inuits who ate saturated fat will have atherosclerosis. The Inuits who ate saturated fat had atherosclerosis, therefore saturated fat causes atherosclerosis?

    But wait, why can't it be from cooking with seal oil? Exactly. That's why this is a fallacy and an all too common one in the world of wild nutritional speculation.
    Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stabby View Post
    This would be known as the fallacy of affirming the consequent. If saturated fat causes atherosclerosis then the Inuits who ate saturated fat will have atherosclerosis. The Inuits who ate saturated fat had atherosclerosis, therefore saturated fat causes atherosclerosis?

    But wait, why can't it be from cooking with seal oil? Exactly. That's why this is a fallacy and an all too common one in the world of wild nutritional speculation.
    If their diet was comprised of only fatty meat then that eliminates pretty much all of the variables. I dont understand the seal oil reference but unless cold climate can cause plaque formation then I think it's highly plausible that the diet was involved. Not to mention every study on other species, and no not just rats or mice, has shown that you can reproduce MI's with a diet high in saturated fat

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    I am saying that there are multiple hypotheses why they could have had atherosclerosis so simply stating that it was the saturated fat isn't good enough and only demonstrates bias. One major hypothesis for the pathogenesis of atherosclerosis includes oxidized lipoproteins and endothelial injury, particularly lipoproteins carrying oxidized polyunsaturated fats. When you heat an isolated oil or expose it to air for too long the polyunsaturated fats become oxidized and this lipid produces lipoperoxides. When the endothelium of the atheries accumulates oxidized polyunsaturated fats its cells can become damaged and arterial damage combined with oxidized lipoproteins begins the formation of atherosclerosis, as described by Dr. Cordain, he would agree with that. The Inuit were well-known to cook with high polyunsaturated oils like seal oil and we can expect cooking with various oils to cause atherosclerosis. Like here with soy oil, there is no reason to distinguish between heated soy oil and heated seal oil with regards to oxidization of polyunsaturated fats. Consumption of repeatedly heated soy oil increases... [Tohoku J Exp Med. 2008] - PubMed result The effect appears to be particularly pronounced in those lacking estrogen, i.e. elderly Inuit women.

    The relation of lipid peroxidation processes with ... [Mol Nutr Food Res. 2005] - PubMed result

    "Cholesterol-PUFA esters are minor constituents of mammalian derived food, but main components of low density lipoprotein (LDL). The PUFA part of these esters occasionally suffers oxidation by heating or storage of mammalian derived food. There are indications that these oxidized cholesterol esters are directly incorporated into lipoproteins and transferred via the LDL into endothelial cells where they induce damage and start the sequence of events outlined above. (atherosclerosis)"

    So if the Inuit were doing something silly like cooking with a high PUFA oil, which does indeed seem to cause atherosclerosis, we can't blame their atherosclerosis on saturated fat because it could all be the heated seal oil.

    As for the "saturated fat" kills rats dead studies, most of them involve a large amount of omega-6 fatty acids which end up causing atherosclerosis by increasing inflammation http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/105/9/1135 High-fat mouse-murder diets are just that - weird and deficient diets that cause damage to the body by a disequilibrium of polyunsaturated fats in the cells.
    Last edited by Stabby; 05-22-2011 at 01:08 PM.
    Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

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  7. #17
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    His statement was made in regard to the question about wither pemmican food is healthy(highly saturated fatty COOKED food). He is defending his notion that lean cuts of meat are best, which your information seems to support as well (unless you're a raw foodist.)

    Also I am not going to buy that the oil reacts drastically different if it's isolated or still attached to the protein

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    He is trying to defend his lean meats statement by saying that saturated fat causes atherosclerosis, which is unfounded inductive reasoning without addressing alternative hypotheses. In short, it's not a good argument since there are other reasons why they could have had atherosclerosis.

    I don't think that fats in properly cooked fish are oxidized significantly. Like here with microwaving http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/07569.pdf
    Stabbing conventional wisdom in its face.

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    I'm going to stick to just the innuit example because we'll be here all day if i try tackling the entire preponderance of data that supports the notion that high saturated fat(especially cooked) is bad for vascular health.

    INFACT, the Innuit example were one of the strongest arguments FOR the inclusion of high saturated fat in the diet. Before I heard the aforementioned interview. I would challenge you now to show me evidence that it is not only benign but healthy, with a cardiovascular endpoint.

    I would like to know that you're tackling the data objectively and not defending your love for bacon or lamb chops, because I know people close to me with diabetes that continue their poor diet(not related to saturated fat), and that's fine

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stabby View Post
    He is trying to defend his lean meats statement by saying that saturated fat causes atherosclerosis, which is unfounded inductive reasoning without addressing alternative hypotheses. In short, it's not a good argument since there are other reasons why they could have had atherosclerosis.

    I don't think that fats in properly cooked fish are oxidized significantly. Like here with microwaving http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/07569.pdf

    Your alternative hypothesis was that the Innuit were cooking their saturated fat (which we would do anyway) and that was the cause for their plaque formation, and had they been eating the saturated fat raw(which is unapplicable to 99% of his listeners) they may not have developed the plaque.

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