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Thread: Intermittent Fasting - A Primer ( Part 3 ) page 33

  1. #321
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    Primal Fuel
    I did a 24 day water only fast, granted I lost some lean tissue (which is less important if your overall weight is lower) I lost about 3/4lb of bf per day which I've kept off for 4 years.

    People are so afraid they'll die if they don't eat for a day or two, and like a few have said on this thread, after 40hours your body's hunger signals subside so long as your ketone adapted beforehand, and have the excess fat and protein stores.

    The amount of protein loss from lean tissue decreases as your body uses FAA and Ketones more effectively, with the brain still needing 50g or so regardless.


    Excuse me for any typos and sarcastic remarks, sent from my iPhone using Marks Daily Apple Forum mobile app

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayDWeger View Post
    A lil info/history

    I have been on the HF/LC eating plan since March first. Working with my Doctor to offset the beginnings of metabolic syndrome without the use of statins. I a 53 m and dropped from 206 to 189-190 in roughly 6 weeks. My first few weeks were roughly 25 - 35 % protein and below 50 grams carbs per day at roughly 2300 calories per day. Currently goals are roughly 5/15 to 20/80 to 75 percents carb / protein / fat at 2500 +/- calories per day. I am finding it very difficult to get consistent ketosis using keto sticks and early on my fasting glucose levels stayed in the 90 to 100 range with random tests (2 hours after meals or at bedtime) at 85 - 100. they are now @ 105 to 110 range fasting, with random tests (2 hours after meals or at bedtime) at 105 to 110.

    Weight has maintained consistently at the 189 to 190 range and ketosis results are very inconsistent (using keto stick testing)
    I feel good and not having hunger issues but still have 10 +/- pounds of extra fat (in the love handle locations) and am getting very concerned about the rising (although very stable) blood glucose levels.

    Any ideas or thoughts would be very appreceated.

    Ray
    There are a number of things to say here, but first and foremost, you need to know your tools.

    Ketostix and all urinalysis strips measure acetoacetate, which is but one of the three ketone bodies you produce, and certainly not the predominant one, beta hydroxybutyrate (BOHB). The only way to measure BOHB is via a blood test, and there is at least one glucose meter that has this capacity, although the test strips are ridiculously expensive, I believe in the range of $3 to $5, and I have yet to see them available for $3.

    This is what ketone body production during fasting / starvation looks like :



    As I mentioned as a reply to someone else, ketogenic diets resemble late stage starvation, so we're talking day 3 onwards in the graph above. If, for whatever reason, your metabolism doesn't produce a whole lot of acetoacetate, but a raft of BOHB, your Ketostix will show you as not being in ketosis, even though you most definitely are.

    There is no magic to ketogenic diets, despite what a lot of proponents of them may lead you to believe. They tend to aid with appetite control, which leads to involuntary caloric restriction, and weight loss. They also cause you to shed water weight, which is illusory, albeit gratifying, weight loss. If you do not have problems with appetite or caloric restriction, then there is no need for you to undergo ketosis.

    If you are determined to be in a ketogenic state, then I would recommend that you take in 4 grams of fat for every gram of protein. Moreover, you should make sure to include as much coconut oil as you can tolerate in your diet, due to the large proportion of medium chain triglycerides (MCTs) it contains. MCTs metabolise differently from other triglycerides. They do not require bile for assimilation and enter the blood stream directly bound to albumin, much like endogenously produced FFAs do. They go directly into oxidation and therefore ketone production.

    -PK
    My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

    Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by pklopp View Post
    There are a number of things to say here, but first and foremost, you need to know your tools.

    Ketostix and all urinalysis strips measure acetoacetate, which is but one of the three ketone bodies you produce, and certainly not the predominant one, beta hydroxybutyrate (BOHB). The only way to measure BOHB is via a blood test, and there is at least one glucose meter that has this capacity, although the test strips are ridiculously expensive, I believe in the range of $3 to $5, and I have yet to see them available for $3.

    This is what ketone body production during fasting / starvation looks like :



    As I mentioned as a reply to someone else, ketogenic diets resemble late stage starvation, so we're talking day 3 onwards in the graph above. If, for whatever reason, your metabolism doesn't produce a whole lot of acetoacetate, but a raft of BOHB, your Ketostix will show you as not being in ketosis, even though you most definitely are.

    There is no magic to ketogenic diets, despite what a lot of proponents of them may lead you to believe. They tend to aid with appetite control, which leads to involuntary caloric restriction, and weight loss. They also cause you to shed water weight, which is illusory, albeit gratifying, weight loss. If you do not have problems with appetite or caloric restriction, then there is no need for you to undergo ketosis.

    If you are determined to be in a ketogenic state, then I would recommend that you take in 4 grams of fat for every gram of protein. Moreover, you should make sure to include as much coconut oil as you can tolerate in your diet, due to the large proportion of medium chain triglycerides (MCTs) it contains. MCTs metabolise differently from other triglycerides. They do not require bile for assimilation and enter the blood stream directly bound to albumin, much like endogenously produced FFAs do. They go directly into oxidation and therefore ketone production.

    -PK
    Thanks I am reading the info on your blog. I do appreciate your comments and agree that i am in the LEARNING stages of this. Luckily for me I love to do the research and are more or less willing to become my OWN experiment. Your posts explains the ketosis results being all over the place. The simple fact that I maintain VLC diet and do use coconut oil between 3 to 5 tbsp / day I had figured the test strips were the issue. I also try to incorporate olive oil and 3 to 4 grams of fish oil (omega 3)

    The 4/1fat to protein ratio is good to know, and that certainly means I need to do some rework of things.

    Thanks again

  4. #324
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    Wanted to ask a more relevant to the topic questions after reading PKs blog (great information)

    I like the science behind the IF. My thoughts are to start with the narrowed feeding window by skipping breakfast for an earlier lunch and followed by dinner at our normal 4 to 5 oclock range. For the first week or two.This should effectively give me a 16 + hour IF. Over the last few years I have retrained my body to eat breakfast and its typically my largest meal so it will probably take a few days to adjust. As my body adjust I will push this to a mid afternoon meal effectively making a smaller total feeding window of 4 to 5 hours.

    Now my question Does taking coconut, olive or fish oils break the IF since these are Fat only items?
    My thinking is that this may help to offset the initial hunger pains for my mornings and give me time to adjust my feeding widow down from my current ten to twelve hour window.

  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayDWeger View Post
    Wanted to ask a more relevant to the topic questions after reading PKs blog (great information)

    I like the science behind the IF. My thoughts are to start with the narrowed feeding window by skipping breakfast for an earlier lunch and followed by dinner at our normal 4 to 5 oclock range. For the first week or two.This should effectively give me a 16 + hour IF. Over the last few years I have retrained my body to eat breakfast and its typically my largest meal so it will probably take a few days to adjust. As my body adjust I will push this to a mid afternoon meal effectively making a smaller total feeding window of 4 to 5 hours.

    Now my question Does taking coconut, olive or fish oils break the IF since these are Fat only items?
    My thinking is that this may help to offset the initial hunger pains for my mornings and give me time to adjust my feeding widow down from my current ten to twelve hour window.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paracelsus
    The dose makes the poison.
    Fats in moderation will not adversely affect the hormonal context of a fast. They will, however, affect your use of endogenous fat as an energy substrate, meaning that there is no reason to draw down your savings account if you there is income. This means you won't be burning quite as much endogenous fat, how much less depends upon how much fat you take in.

    Your strategy is reasonable, but I would suggest the Coconut oil as your go to appetite suppressant. Coconut oil contains a high proportion of medium chain triglycerides that hit your system very quickly, as they go directly into portal circulation bound to albumin. This means that they hit the liver rapidly, and that will impact satiety, energy partitioning, and a host of other beneficial things:

    Quote Originally Posted by Physiological Effects of Medium-Chain Triglycerides: Potential Agents in the Prevention of Obesity
    Medium chain fatty acids (MCFA) are readily oxidized in the liver. Animal and human studies have shown that the fast rate of oxidation of MCFA leads to greater energy expenditure (EE). Most animal studies have also demonstrated that the greater EE with MCFA relative to long-chain fatty acids (LCFA) results in less body weight gain and decreased size of fat depots after several months of consumption. Furthermore, both animal and human trials suggest a greater satiating effect of medium-chain triglycerides (MCT) compared with long-chain triglycerides (LCT).
    This, by the way, explains why people cannot put down too much Coconut oil. Satiety kicks in really quickly. On the other hand, olive oil is predominantly oleic acid, an 18 carbon monounsaturated fat, and MCTs are defined as 6 - 12 carbon fats. The omega 3 fatty acids in fish oils are 20 and 22 carbons long! Due to these long carbon chains, these fatty acids are insoluble in plasma, they require bile salts to digest, and must be packaged in chylomicrons for systemic distribution. All of this means that they don't generally hit your system for at least an hour, which probably won't help you in your appetite suppression efforts.

    -PK
    Last edited by pklopp; 05-20-2013 at 07:04 AM.
    My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

    Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

  6. #326
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    Thanks for all the information PK..... I generally take 1 tbs of Coconut oil with 1000 mg of omega 3 fish oil 1st thing in the morning plus an extra 1000 mg of omega 3 fish oil at bedtime. I will just use the Olive Oil to my new feeding window.

    My wife takes a tbs of coconut oil in the mornings after breakfast and generally has to force herself to eat lunch (maybe no need now that we are going to the IF). She has even stated that she is finding it difficult to eat her BMR based calories when using the coconut oil @ 2 tbs/day.

    First day trying the IF at 15 hours since last meal and feeling good. Earlier I noticed a bit of hunger but felt it was more mental than physical. Going to do my 30 min of hitt over lunch then going to eat the feed bag at roughly 18 hours....

  7. #327
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    Thanks for all the detailed info.

    I do my slow cardio fasted, in addition to heavy lifting and balance/flexibility exercises. I have noticed so decent body re compostion doing it this way. However, my concern is that I am burning too many calories too fast and that the body can not access the stored fat fast enough for my caloric needs and there for starts canbolizing bone/muscle/organ etc... Is there a safe caloric output per hour where one would not have to worry about damage, but still maximizes fat energy access. Also my slow cardio is about a 9.5 to 10 min mile.

  8. #328
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    Best WOE that I have ever tried!! I became "immune" to food smell and sight at early times of the day, even when I cook for my kids ... I became a nutritional Muslim ...

  9. #329
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    PK, one more thank you for all the info and feedback on this thread and on your blog. Another data point for you.

    I've been low carbing for nearly 6 months now so I suspect I'm decently fat-adapted, but I'd stalled on weight-loss for a month or more. I'd seen the IF threads but not considered it because I've been generally matching my eating habits with my father's. But one morning last week I really didn't feel hungry, so I didn't have breakfast and it didn't seem to bother him my not eating. I still wasn't hungry at lunch, so I've been on one meal a day since then and feeling much better for it as well as breaking the weight-loss stall. I've never had a problem with missing occasional meals or not eating most of the day when I just can't get round to it and I find that being 'empty' for much of the day actually feels more comfortable for me - perhaps linked to my not being hungry when I'm nervous about something.

    I have to say though, that although Mark has a fairly strong message on 'eat when you feel like it', I feel a lot better knowing what's going on with my physiology and why this is working the way it is. Thank you.
    Me, My Father and The Alzheimer's - http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread84213.html

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by awok677 View Post
    PK, one more thank you for all the info and feedback on this thread and on your blog. Another data point for you.

    I've been low carbing for nearly 6 months now so I suspect I'm decently fat-adapted, but I'd stalled on weight-loss for a month or more. I'd seen the IF threads but not considered it because I've been generally matching my eating habits with my father's. But one morning last week I really didn't feel hungry, so I didn't have breakfast and it didn't seem to bother him my not eating. I still wasn't hungry at lunch, so I've been on one meal a day since then and feeling much better for it as well as breaking the weight-loss stall. I've never had a problem with missing occasional meals or not eating most of the day when I just can't get round to it and I find that being 'empty' for much of the day actually feels more comfortable for me - perhaps linked to my not being hungry when I'm nervous about something.

    I have to say though, that although Mark has a fairly strong message on 'eat when you feel like it', I feel a lot better knowing what's going on with my physiology and why this is working the way it is. Thank you.
    You're welcome.

    I got started with fasting on the basis of a single research paper on the effects of fasting on growth hormone. I've cited it in this series. With that in my back pocket, I then didn't eat over a weekend ( yeah, a 60+ hour fast ) and haven't looked back since.

    I think in a vacuum, Mark's advice is sound. There is, however, quite a body of research on subliminal priming, and I recall watching a fascinating documentary that had a group of marketing professionals ostensibly come up with a new branding / advertising campaign for a company. They ultimately brought these marketing folks in to do their pitch, and in the board room where this was to take place, they had set up a covered flip board. The producers then proceeded to predict what was pitch was going to be. They revealed the flip board, and went through it, and it was pretty much spot on to what going to be proposed. They then went through and revealed how they had primed the experts to come up with that exact pitch. Unfortunately, I can't remember or locate this segment. If anyone has a link, I would be greatly in your debt.

    So, since we all live in an environment that is conducive to subliminal priming, we can be primed to eat, apart from our basic metabolic needs. But our priming is not subliminal. In fact, it is overt, and it mainly takes the form of advertising. Messages directly sent to you with the explicit intent of affecting your behaviour. Advertisers are not stupid. They spend their money and expect a return on their investment. Of course, advertisers claim that basically advertising is intended to affect choice of brand, not other behaviour. This may be true, but an "unintended" consequence of food advertising is increased food consumption:

    Quote Originally Posted by Priming Effects of Television Food Advertising on Eating Behavior
    Objective: Health advocates have focused on the prevalence of advertising for calorie-dense low-nutrient foods as a significant contributor to the obesity epidemic. This research tests the hypothesis that exposure to food advertising during TV viewing may also contribute to obesity by triggering automatic snacking of available food. Design: In Experiments 1a and 1b, elementary-school-age children watched a cartoon that contained either food advertising or advertising for other products and received a snack while watching. In Experiment 2, adults watched a TV program that included food advertising that promoted snacking and/or fun product benefits, food advertising that promoted nutrition benefits, or no food advertising. The adults then tasted and evaluated a range of healthy to unhealthy snack foods in an apparently separate experiment. Main Outcome Measures: Amount of snack foods consumed during and after advertising exposure. Results: Children consumed 45% more when exposed to food advertising. Adults consumed more of both healthy and unhealthy snack foods following exposure to snack food advertising compared to the other conditions. In both experiments, food advertising increased consumption of products not in the presented advertisements, and these effects were not related to reported hunger or other conscious influences. Conclusion: These experiments demonstrate the power of food advertising to prime automatic eating behaviors and thus influence far more than brand preference alone.
    So, in our current context, we find ourselves constantly bombarded with priming messages to eat. This makes "eat when you feel like it" a far more challenging proposition than it once was.

    This is why I prefer fasting and one meal per day. You cannot mess this up. I doesn't really get any simpler.

    -PK
    Last edited by pklopp; 05-22-2013 at 09:17 AM.
    My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

    Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

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