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Thread: Intermittent Fasting - A Primer ( Part 3 ) page 32

  1. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by john_e_turner_ii View Post
    I agree that much of what we know or thought is wrong. I would really like to see a longer term study, and it would be interesting to see what they consider a significant increase in BP and cholesterol.
    Here's where common sense runs head first into pointy egghead science.

    Significant to a scientist does not mean what you think it means. It means statistical significance, which relates to how likely a particular result is to occur strictly at random. So, I may observe an increase in some parameter of .0001%, but if it is unlikely to occur randomly, I would state this as "a significant effect" and impress all my scientist friends. Significance is given in terms of p-values where a p-value of .05, say, indicates that we can claim with 95% confidence that the effect is not due to chance.

    As far as what was observed in this study ... an increase of about 6% in systolic and diastolic pressure, from 109.5/66 to 116.1/69.8. The reference range being 119-90/79-60. So, subjects stayed within the normal range, but edged closer to the higher end of the range.

    It's up to each of us to determine whether we consider that significant in real people terms.

    -PK
    My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

    Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

  2. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimalFocus View Post
    Hi PK,

    Would you be willing to share a sample of your current meal plan or point me to where you may have already done so? One of the challenges I have with one meal a day is consuming sufficient quantities to feel I am getting solid nutrition. I am 6', male, and 250 lbs. Obviously I am squarely in the looking for weight loss camp. Calculators put my TDEE at 2,300 to 2,800 or so. Shooting for even 2,000 is a struggle in one meal as I get overly full. Thoughts?
    I don't have a meal plan, per se, just guidelines. It is trivially easy to hit those calories if you eat fats. So, for example, if I'm have a salad, I'll add extra virgin olive oil ( EVO ), avocados, nuts, feta cheese, and some protein source ( steak / chicken / whole eggs / tuna ). The vegetables in a salad simply won't help you, they are not very nutrient dense, although quite tasty. You will have problems if you do not like dairy, basically cheese. I, on the other hand, am a cheese addict. I also cannot seem to keep away from roasted almonds, which are calorie bombs.

    I also make desserts with heavy cream as the base ... so, maybe strawberries and cream. I use Stevia to sweeten the cream if the mood strikes. Trust me, the calories add up.

    -PK
    My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

    Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

  3. #313
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    Many thanks for the reply! I will re-double my efforts. I enjoy all the high-calorie items you mentioned: dairy, roasted nuts, etc. I may be overdoing the volume of the less calorie dense food items.

    Quote Originally Posted by pklopp View Post
    I don't have a meal plan, per se, just guidelines. It is trivially easy to hit those calories if you eat fats. So, for example, if I'm have a salad, I'll add extra virgin olive oil ( EVO ), avocados, nuts, feta cheese, and some protein source ( steak / chicken / whole eggs / tuna ). The vegetables in a salad simply won't help you, they are not very nutrient dense, although quite tasty. You will have problems if you do not like dairy, basically cheese. I, on the other hand, am a cheese addict. I also cannot seem to keep away from roasted almonds, which are calorie bombs.

    I also make desserts with heavy cream as the base ... so, maybe strawberries and cream. I use Stevia to sweeten the cream if the mood strikes. Trust me, the calories add up.

    -PK

  4. #314
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    A lil info/history

    I have been on the HF/LC eating plan since March first. Working with my Doctor to offset the beginnings of metabolic syndrome without the use of statins. I a 53 m and dropped from 206 to 189-190 in roughly 6 weeks. My first few weeks were roughly 25 - 35 % protein and below 50 grams carbs per day at roughly 2300 calories per day. Currently goals are roughly 5/15 to 20/80 to 75 percents carb / protein / fat at 2500 +/- calories per day. I am finding it very difficult to get consistent ketosis using keto sticks and early on my fasting glucose levels stayed in the 90 to 100 range with random tests (2 hours after meals or at bedtime) at 85 - 100. they are now @ 105 to 110 range fasting, with random tests (2 hours after meals or at bedtime) at 105 to 110.

    Weight has maintained consistently at the 189 to 190 range and ketosis results are very inconsistent (using keto stick testing)
    I feel good and not having hunger issues but still have 10 +/- pounds of extra fat (in the love handle locations) and am getting very concerned about the rising (although very stable) blood glucose levels.

    Any ideas or thoughts would be very appreceated.

    Ray

  5. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by pklopp View Post
    You're basically on the right track, but a bit fuzzy on the details.

    Ketone bodies in the blood stream result from an increase in FFA, not the other way around. In fact, ketones are produced by incomplete beta oxidation of fats in hepatocytes. Beta oxidation requires an intermediate metabolite, oxaloacetate, to completely oxidize fats. Oxaloacetate is a product of pyruvate metabolism, which in turn is the end product of glycolysis. So, when you don't have a lot of glucose around, you also don't have a lot of pyruvate, and ditto for oxaloacetate. The end result of this is incomplete oxidation of fats resulting in higher circulating ketone levels.

    With that said, you have probably heard that ketogenic diets mimic starvation. That's all fine and well, but what exactly is meant by that? Consider that there are basically four stages of starvation.

    Stage 1 is the post prandial stage and lasts about 24 hours. During this stage your body is still heavily reliant upon glucose for energy and this is supplied from hepatic glycogen.

    Stage 2 begins when your liver has exhausted its store of glycogen, so about 24 hours into your fast. At this point, metabolism is still fundamentally glycolytic although it is starting to transition towards fat / ketone energy sources. During this transition, gluconeogenesis ramps up significantly to provide energy. This phase lasts about 48 hours.

    At about 72 hours into the fast, you enter Stage 3. In this stage, metabolism has adapted to predominantly utilize fats and ketone bodies as the basic energy substrate. Obligate glycolytic tissues still need glucose to be provided via gluconeogenesis, but the bulk of the substrate for that gluconeogenesis is glycerol from oxidized triglycerides. Overall gluconeogenesis rates are lower than during stage 2. Stage 3 is a steady state stage that can pretty much go on as long as you have fat to oxidize.

    Once you run out of fat, you enter Stage 4 starvation. At this stage, the only way to provide glucose for the glycolytic tissues is via gluconeogenesis using protein as the substrate, and weight loss is rapid and death shortly follows.

    With that as background, ketogenic diets mimic Stage 3. This means that if you fast, you pretty much get to dispense with Stage 1 and 2, and with the increased gluconeogenesis that those entail, since you're practically living in Stage 3 constantly. This is quite an advantage because Stage 2 gluconeogenesis will use some protein as a substrate, so by being in ketosis, you could theoretically maintain more of your lean mass. Not a bad outcome at all. The only complication, if you can call it that, is that you need to follow a ketogenic diet which is not something for everyone.

    -PK
    Got it and thank you for the clarification PK.

  6. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayDWeger View Post
    A lil info/history

    I have been on the HF/LC eating plan since March first. Working with my Doctor to offset the beginnings of metabolic syndrome without the use of statins. I a 53 m and dropped from 206 to 189-190 in roughly 6 weeks. My first few weeks were roughly 25 - 35 % protein and below 50 grams carbs per day at roughly 2300 calories per day. Currently goals are roughly 5/15 to 20/80 to 75 percents carb / protein / fat at 2500 +/- calories per day. I am finding it very difficult to get consistent ketosis using keto sticks and early on my fasting glucose levels stayed in the 90 to 100 range with random tests (2 hours after meals or at bedtime) at 85 - 100. they are now @ 105 to 110 range fasting, with random tests (2 hours after meals or at bedtime) at 105 to 110.

    Weight has maintained consistently at the 189 to 190 range and ketosis results are very inconsistent (using keto stick testing)
    I feel good and not having hunger issues but still have 10 +/- pounds of extra fat (in the love handle locations) and am getting very concerned about the rising (although very stable) blood glucose levels.

    Any ideas or thoughts would be very appreceated.

    Ray
    Not long ago Pklopp responded to a similar query. I think the poster was Otzi. I can't give you the specifics, but what he described was justification for the idea that the higher fasting glucose level may actually be normal given a low carb diet and ketosis.

    All the research is based on people who eat lots of carbs.

    Kind of like the new normal.

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    I see that I forgot to inquire if I change my meals from a fairly large breakfast when first get up with progressively smaller lunch & dinner meals with a couple of mid morning & evening doses of coconut oil, to only eating 2 to 3 times a day and allow more time say a 12 to 15 hour IF in the evening will this help to bring my blood glucose levels back down?? Or should I consider a Major Carb reset? I do occasionally do a cheer meal but never to the degree mentioned in the carb refeed

  8. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by eKatherine View Post
    Not long ago Pklopp responded to a similar query. I think the poster was Otzi. I can't give you the specifics, but what he described was justification for the idea that the higher fasting glucose level may actually be normal given a low carb diet and ketosis.

    All the research is based on people who eat lots of carbs.

    Kind of like the new normal.
    Thanks for that info
    I am also considering going back to my original testing meter as the new one shows my wife considerably higher than she normally is...

  9. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayDWeger View Post
    Thanks for that info
    I am also considering going back to my original testing meter as the new one shows my wife considerably higher than she normally is...
    Not long ago I bought a glucose meter because I felt weird after a carb refeed. I normally eat low carb, and found my fasting glucose to be 85-110. My response to eating a high carb meal was perfectly normal. It turns out I just feel like crap after eating too much food.

    If I was concerned about the accuracy of my meter, I would buy some standardization solutions. That would tell you if it's right.

  10. #320
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    Does anyone know if having multiple servings of BCAA during morning lifts and shortly after break the fast?

    I lift in the am fasted and don't eat anything until 6 pm

    Thanks.

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