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Thread: Intermittent Fasting - A Primer ( Part 2 ) page 9

  1. #81
    Nat77's Avatar
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    Thanks PacificBeef, very true! I suppose it feels like a 'shallow' goal (and I'm using this term slightly tongue in cheek) in comparison to the other health benefits of IF. Still a valid one though - I love my skinny jeans

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat77 View Post
    Thanks PacificBeef, very true! I suppose it feels like a 'shallow' goal (and I'm using this term slightly tongue in cheek) in comparison to the other health benefits of IF. Still a valid one though - I love my skinny jeans
    I think you need more practice at being shallow, or maybe you should find a mentor. You've certainly chosen a rather difficult route to enhancing your appearance, that of changing from within... For those impressionable youngsters out there, I need to point out that it might be far easier to simply try to find a flattering muffin top ...

    -PK
    Last edited by pklopp; 09-02-2011 at 04:22 AM.
    My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

    Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

  3. #83
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    I don't want to pull focus from the real discussion topic on this thread, just wanted to apologise if I offended anyone by using the term 'shallow' as this has been picked up a couple of times now. My intention was only to make light of my goals (I am slim and have no health issues so my reasons are purely aesthetic), not to judge.

    PK, you're spot on with your comment about changing from within, I do have food demons so hitting IF too hard was a big mistake - for me at any rate. I'm settled back into my Paleo routine and find that a condensed eating window suits me extremely well. Longer IF may be a little way off yet. Thanks again for the good advice.

    Nat

  4. #84
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    PK

    I have been primal for three weeks now, been trying to get the hang of the whole IF idea. Ive been doing pretty well so far, will eat dinner and then not eat again until the next afternoon, but this has come at a price. I was under the impression the you shouldn't be incredibly hungry during this time period, but ive been doing all I can to ignore the hunger pains. Im talking about intense painful stomach growling. Does this mean I need to eat more? Or will it start to fade as I become more adapted to the IF schedule.
    Also I know you mentioned a little is ok, I do not drink cofee (strictly water), but what about a small piece of dark chocolate. Before adapting to the primal lifestyle I would stuff my face with chocolate constantly, I find my days much less stressful when I allow myself a piece of dark chocolate. Would this be considered "breaking the fast"?

    PS Thanks for the great posts!
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicheap194 View Post
    Curious, PK, do you find that drinking coffee with HWC affects your fast in any way? I usually have coffee with HWC and some coconut oil, as I did this morning, and I find that very satisfying for several hours...but is that going against the whole point?
    I think we need to be reasonable with the approach to fasting. My thinking is that the metabolic response to severe caloric restriction is a continuum, it's not an on off switch. I suspect that there is a threshold for caloric intake below which, for all intents and purposes, the metabolic response is pretty much the same. So, whether you ingest 0 calories or 200, it won't substantially affect how your metabolism responds. As far as I know, this has not been studied, so it is basically speculation on my part. Since I cannot rely on evidence to call the precise point where that threshold is, I can basically only advocate caution and moderation.

    If this threshold notion holds true, then we are probably safe in adding some HWC to our coffees. Just don't go overboard. One oz. of cream is about 100 calories, so, three cups of coffee in a day with this amount of cream will give us a 300 cal. shot of energy. At some point, we can no longer call this fasting.

    Lastly, but extremely important nonetheless, note that what we are doing is ingesting fats, with zero protein or carbohydrates which makes this an extremely ketogenic source of calories. From a metabolic standpoint, ketosis mimics "starvation", which suggests that we won't affect the metabolic changes brought about by IF. Of course, we are displacing the consumption of adipose tissue with exogenous fats, but not in a significant way.

    When you put it all together, a nominal source of highly ketogenic calories should not affect our fast.

    -PK
    My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

    Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by amijoy View Post
    PK

    I have been primal for three weeks now, been trying to get the hang of the whole IF idea. Ive been doing pretty well so far, will eat dinner and then not eat again until the next afternoon, but this has come at a price. I was under the impression the you shouldn't be incredibly hungry during this time period, but ive been doing all I can to ignore the hunger pains. Im talking about intense painful stomach growling. Does this mean I need to eat more? Or will it start to fade as I become more adapted to the IF schedule.
    Also I know you mentioned a little is ok, I do not drink cofee (strictly water), but what about a small piece of dark chocolate. Before adapting to the primal lifestyle I would stuff my face with chocolate constantly, I find my days much less stressful when I allow myself a piece of dark chocolate. Would this be considered "breaking the fast"?

    PS Thanks for the great posts!
    I think you are probably suffering from the enthusiasm of the young! I find that some people have a tendency to jump in head first without first checking the waters. All that is to say that you probably should take your time acclimatizing to your new way of eating. If you recall, I suggested gradually moving back your breakfast time by an hour a week. Assuming you have breakfast around 7 AM, this would imply that at this point you should be eating again around 10:00 AM as you've only been at it for three weeks now. Since you say that you actually do not eat until the afternoon, this suggests to me that you might be forcing things a bit.

    Your body does get conditioned to meal times, and if you'd like I can pull up some papers on this for you. Accordingly, it will take time to undo this conditioning, so I would suggest that you try eating at 10:00, sometime in the afternoon, and then your evening meal. Once the interval between the morning and afternoon meals approaches 1 hour, then you can eliminate one or the other, and I would suggest eliminating the afternoon meal.

    I also suspect that you might be skipping meals rather than coalescing meals. Until you get proficient at IF, you need to redistribute your calories among the meals that you do eat. So, if your daily caloric intake before fasting was 2300 kcal. spread out across 12 meals, then you should still be eating that even though you are eating 2 meals a day, and eventually, one daily 2300 kcal. meal. Once you become accustomed to your one daily meal, at least 2-3 weeks of eating that way, then you can start playing with your calorie count.

    I have a friend who upon hearing about my dietary practices decided she was going to fast over a weekend ... going from a standard 3 daily meals straight into a 48 hr. fast! Never mind the fact that I laid out the progression for her as I have here. From her recounting of the experience, she definitely experienced a hypoglycemic episode, and she was a little traumatized by the whole thing. As a result, she's given up on fasting as not being suitable for her. To each his or her own, but I'd rather she would have heeded the advice of someone who's been there before making her ultimate decision.

    As far as your small piece of dark chocolate goes, it should be fine, depending upon what your definitions of "small" and "dark" are. I'm a bit extreme, and for me "dark" = 100% cacao. Small would be on the order of about 10g or thereabouts.

    Hope this helps.

    -PK
    My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

    Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

  7. #87
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    I think your absolutely right! I've never been one for easing into things. Being a college student makes that difficult, I can eat in the morning before heading off to campus, eat in the afternoon on the days I have a big enough lunch break, and eat whenever I get home in the evening. The only bsolute true constant is that I almost always have time to eat in the evenings, which is why this IF schedule you talk about sounds amazing.
    You also hit the nail on the head by saying I'm not getting anough calories, this is something I still need to work on. I find that when its actually time for me to eat my hunger has subsided quite a bit and I can't even get a whole meal down without feeling incredibly full. For example, yesterday was a pretty busy day so I didn't get a chance to eat until around 7:30PM, which was almost 24 hours after my previous meal. However, once i started eating I was full after one chicken thigh and some snap peas. Once again, my hunger has returned this morning. Its like a cycle, I'll be pretty hungry in the morning but can handle it with some water and my daily meds, a few hours into class it starts getting worse and will last for a couple hours, then sometime in the afternoon I might get the sensation again but by that point I know can make it until dinner, then when dinner time rolls around I'm never hungry enough to eat a ton. One good thing I've noticed is that even though I still get hungry, it's not nearly as bad as earlier in the week.
    I'm so confused...
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  8. #88
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    PK

    I love your HONEST summary of "The Madness"! We can probably add to "The Magic of Fasting" the surge of endorphins - chemicals thousands of times stronger than heroin. "Traumas" of any kind (including fasting) trigger an automatic burst of soothing endorphins. You may know of people who felt no pain for hours after a terrible physical injury. Endorphins can do more than kill pain. They provide the sensation of pleasure too. Euphoria, joy, the "runners' high" (when runners have run past their pain threshold). So effectively, we can call it the "fasters' high" too!

    Okay, now off to read your third blog on fasting.

    Best,
    Health Divas

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by pklopp View Post
    This is how I eat daily, with the notable exception of 40 hours fasts thrown in periodically.

    Brillat-Savarin said "A man does not live on what he eats, an old proverb says, but on what he digests." Savarin was undoubtedly a genius and hit the nail squarely on the head with that. A meal, depending upon its makeup, takes from 4 - 5 hours to traverse the alimentary tract, and therefore digest. The implication of this is that if you subscribe to the "three square meals a day" approach, then you are literally spending all of your waking hours digesting. Breakfast at 7:00 AM, five hours later, lucky you, you get to have lunch, for another episode of a 5 hour digestion session terminating at 5:00 PM, when , gee, let's have dinner and initiate another round of digestion that will wrap up roughly at 10:00 PM when it is more or less time to go to sleep so that we can rinse and repeat tomorrow.

    This to me seems absolutely antithetical to all that we know about how people work. We don't do anything constantly. We alternate between periods of activity and inactivity. Look at our circadian rhythms, pulsatile secretion of hormones, 90 minute sleep micro-cycles during the night, and so on. This intuitively suggests to me that eating ought to exhibit the same kind of underlying pattern, so eat, not-eat. The Ramadan fasting studies seem to support this intuition.

    This is all to say that intermittent fasting as I've described it seems to me to be the most natural eating pattern. And, as an aside, I really dislike the term intermittent fasting because it frames the discourse within a connotative box that includes such notions as starving, discomfort, and unnatural behaviour. There is a lot of cultural baggage there that must be dispensed with. I am working on better terminology, and as I am fond of playing with language, I have my own neologism that I think better expresses my philosophy. However, the problem is that it is my terminology and not widely used, therefore, as the point of this primer was to dispel misinformation, I was forced to address and rely upon the prevailing terminology.

    I have a few things to say about your last couple of sentences, but, as I am verbose, these posts take a bit of time for me to write, so I will come back to you in a bit with more.

    -PK
    I just wanted to add to your earlier observation about all major religions taking fasting as a means of prayer & service - Mahatma Gandhi was an avid faster & has given many a quote on fasting! Some of them are really wonderful pearls of wisdom such as
    "Fasting will bring spiritual rebirth to those of you who cleanse and purify your bodies. The light of the world will illuminate within you when you fast and purify yourself"

    This is a fantastic Thread PK! I'll be jumping on to Part 3 now

    Regards,
    Vishnu

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